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Word on the Reef
Inspiring interviews with marine conservation legends.
Word on the Reef
Meet Legendary 90-Year-Old Shipwreck-Hunter Ben Cropp
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Now available in video format on Spotify and Apple Podcasts! In this episode we sit down with Australian diving legend Ben Cropp AM to trace a life that swings from shark hunting fame to conservation, shipwreck discovery, and hard-won lessons from 70 years of diving on the Great Barrier Reef. He tells us what it really takes to stay alive underwater, think like a skipper, and keep chasing purpose into one's 90s.
Along the way we'll learn about the whale shark encounter that changed him from a hunter to a conservationist, close calls filming crocodiles at night, how he survived stinging himself with multiple box jellyfish, how he found more than 100 shipwrecks, what it's like to take Clint Eastwood fishing, what became of his legendary shipwreck museum, the hunt for pre-Cook European contact in Queensland, the impacts of water pollution observed over 70 years of diving, and advice on how to live a full life!
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Meeting Ben Cropp & A Tour of Shipwreck Artefacts
SPEAKER_02He could see what the crocodile was doing, but I couldn't. And believe me, there were something like 20 of them lined up. And he just said, Dad, when I say run, really run.
SPEAKER_01How many of your nine lives do you think you've used up with all of this dark for me?
SPEAKER_02I have been attacked.
SPEAKER_01Have you been stung by a box jellyfish?
SPEAKER_02Quite a few times.
SPEAKER_01How did you first get interested in searching for shipwrecks?
SPEAKER_02Well, at first, and I'm talking about 1954, we actually blew the wrecks up. I bring it up a little bit. How do you live tonight?
SPEAKER_00Well, basically for me, this is Word on the Reef, where marine science meets adventure. Join Tanya Murphy and Brett Woodvan and plunge into the wonders of the Great Barrier Reef and explore the mysteries beneath the waves.
SPEAKER_01A few weeks ago, I drove north to the quiet seaside town of Longa Beach to meet a true legend of the Australian diving community, Ben Krop. Ben was once an Australian spearfishing champion and a shark hunter. But in 1962, he walked away from that life and turned his attention to marine documentary filmmaking and conservation. Since then, he's produced around 150 wildlife documentaries, many of them award-winning. And he's become one of Australia's most prolific shipwreck hunters, discovering more than 100 wrecks, including two ships from Matthew Flinder's voyages, and the Pandora, the ship sent to capture the mutineers of the bounty. And at 90 years old, Ben is showing few signs of slowing down. Hi Ben, how are you? Hope you don't mind that I'm filming. I've got my camera on. Is that alright?
SPEAKER_02Yes, that's all my odds and ends.
SPEAKER_01Wow, the treasures. What have you got here? Can you show us some of the stuff?
SPEAKER_02Well, two bells are the hardest to get. 30 caliber machine gun. Helmet black coal. Oh, and these here. Over some big shark teeth.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Where'd you get those from? A shark. A living shark or a fossilised one? Fossilised.
SPEAKER_02This one, oh this is heavy. That's a 12-pound cannonball, messy blinders, left a ball behind. Just lots of odds and ends that uh came out of the museum.
SPEAKER_01I think I saw some of these in one of your films.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01Is that Toffee? Is this Toffee?
SPEAKER_02Uh yes, two bags.
SPEAKER_01Oh hello! I think I saw one of them in your films. Is it the same one or is it the next generation?
SPEAKER_02Couple of items out there. A cannon with stuff used to dry your towels. Ah, that's what they use them for. Yeah, that's right. And a native canoe. Wow. These are all the awards I've won. Not all of them, some of them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you've got a lot of.
SPEAKER_02Some I threw away. I actually should not have had so many.
SPEAKER_01Television gold award, children's special Kodak Award.
SPEAKER_02These are actual 50 caliber shells from machine gun. We found about five machine guns in a plane. That's still got the powder in there and still dry. Sixty years up underwater, still dry. That's how good they made these.
SPEAKER_01Did you shoot that if you had the right weapon?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Shoot it over the gun?
SPEAKER_02Yes, but I don't have the gun. I'd have problems, I think, if I had the gun, wouldn't I? Yeah. The old diving gear down here, the old regulators, masks.
SPEAKER_01Did you used to use that?
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, a long while ago.
SPEAKER_01Extra uh fittings on it that they or weights.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, in those days, we used to use army belts which had a catch, but you couldn't undo it with one hand. Very dangerous. You know, if you're holding something else, you had to drop it, and you had to use two hands to undo that. And we all had these belts very, very dangerous. I don't think anyone died, but but yeah, that could have happened.
SPEAKER_01I saw this in one of your uh crucibles again.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so that's the one. Oh, that that's part of part of the scales.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I learned that from watching one of your films, so you know that the ship was carrying precious metals scales.
SPEAKER_02Actually, it carried 13,000 ounces of gold, and we could not find any. Maybe it's good because the government would have taken it off us. If we decided to keep it, they'd throw us in jail. So sometimes it's better not to find it would have been a moral dilemma to know what to do. Can you imagine your decision? What would be your decision?
SPEAKER_01Well, maybe someone else already got it all bad. Maybe that's why you couldn't find it.
SPEAKER_02Uh well, I think they got it when the wreck happened, took it, and then when they got back, uh they said I was all lost, insurance pays.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02And and these guys become barons.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Wealthy barons in in England.
SPEAKER_01Mysteriously wealthy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That's that's the more likely because if you were on a shipwreck, would you leave all that gold on the boat?
SPEAKER_01No. Well, depends how uh close to death you were, I suppose.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But uh well, they're thrown up on top of a reef. And no, I I would say that they they took it and just said, hey, we we lost it on on the ship, and they become wealthy barons in England. When it comes to gold, there's no scruples at at all. Oh, that this is this is a fake.
SPEAKER_03Oh I would think so.
SPEAKER_02But this is not a fake. This this was a spear gun that President Johnson gave to our Prime Minister Harold Holt because he knew he was very keen on spearfishing, and Harold Holt was an old friend of mine. Uh, and uh so I ended up with the gun. After he died, uh I ended up with this gun that President Johnson specially gifted to him.
SPEAKER_01Amazing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, quite something. I've got what do you call it? No uh paperwork. Because paperwork because they're all dead. Oh, that's coming off. But it does have his initials. Here. Harold Edward Holt.
SPEAKER_03Hmm, there you go.
SPEAKER_02But I don't I don't have the the paperwork there, yeah. They're all dead. Others there's lots and lots more, but this is just what I keep privately at home.
SPEAKER_01Remind you of all your many adventures. So hello then. Um, thanks for making
Beginnings: Spearfishing Champion
SPEAKER_01the time to catch up with me today. To start off with, can you please tell us a bit about yourself and especially where are you from? Where were you born and when?
SPEAKER_02How long have you got?
SPEAKER_01I've come here to get the whole story.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. Well, I'll try and keep it short.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02Born in the Solomon Islands, my father was a missionary, Australian missionary, and uh in a beautiful little place called Booker Island, and little another little island just offshore, Petats, very tropical on our Great Barry Reef, a good place. But we came back here just before World War II started, and uh moved around a lot because my father being a uh missionary minister, and we sort of went all over uh northern New South Wales, but we spent a lot of time at Lenox Head. And when I was 14, going to school at Ballon, I was with a friend, we were walking out on the Causeway at Balloner, and we saw these islanders speef fishing. They were from a mission boat, and we went, wow, well, this is looks interesting. At that stage, I was just f uh fishing, right? And I was 14 years old. So we went home and we manufactured the equipment, much like they had. Very, very primitive. You couldn't buy flippers in the shop, snorkels, I don't think snorkels were even invented by then. So, very, very primitive, and went spearfishing down at Lenox Head. Now, I did all the wrong things because I I I had no one to teach me. I chased the fish and got very few. And then my history teacher was actually a spearfisherman. He said, Ben, get yourself a lead belt, sit on the bottom and wait, and the fish will come to you. And I did that, and I started getting lots of fish. And within three years, I win the Australian championship. So it was that simple advice from my history teacher that got me from just a dumb spear fisherman up to the top. And in those days, I was the only one in that area. There was someone in Byron Bay, but we were very few and far between and very scattered. Then we moved up to Tweet Heads, South Tweet Heads, and I met up with the local divers there. They had another five years on me, and that year we had the Australian spearfishing championships at Tweed Heads. And I was one of the team, and we cleaned up, we won. And my closest diving buddy won the Australian Open, uh, the other one second, and and we won the teams and so forth. And this is all 1953, just three years after starting diving.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_02So so it was a good start, and of course I I was mad, mad keen on uh on spearfishing, you know. We used to sell our fish sand. I mean we were we were broke. I was on ten dollars a week and had a car and had to try and pay for the petrol. So we'd go out every weekend spearfishing, sell the fish for a shilling a pound.
SPEAKER_04I don't know, I can't even imagine what that is.
SPEAKER_02Oh, very low, very low compared to what it is now. Very, very well, shilling is ten cents.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02And so that would that would be uh twenty-four cents a kilo.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_02That's all, twenty-four cents. Forgetting. But anyway, it allowed us to progress. And so I stayed with the spearfishing uh championships, one a lot more, one six or seven in total, and then gave it away. And the last thing I did was I went to the World Championship and represented Australia twice on that.
SPEAKER_01Where where did you go for that?
SPEAKER_02Uh Malta and Sicily.
unknownOh wow.
SPEAKER_02Didn't do much good. Actually, I did do good compared to the others, but but I think I can't got 11th, something like that, but out of about 40 competitors. But there's a lot of luck there. If you happen to get a really big fish, you can become the world champion because it all goes on weight. And if you don't get that big fish, you you you're relegated much lower. And it's all very, very deep diving. I mean, I was seeing fish 80 feet down, and I couldn't get to them. I could get 70 feet. Sorry, I got to w work in the old figures because that's what they were. And uh I just couldn't get that last 10 feet, but there was enough fish there to win the title. And the person who won got there, you know, got right down to that depth.
From Shark Hunting to Filmmaking
SPEAKER_02So I came back from that in 61, won the Australian Championship, and decided, okay, I want to make a living out of diving. And I had already had an offer to do uh the abalone business, run the abalone, and I went, oh, that'll keep me down in uh cold water. I didn't like that. Or I could try making films. And I decided films would take me to the tropics, abalone would take me where it's too cold. So it was a wise move. So I teamed up with Ron Taylor, who was the only uh person doing any camera work then. And our first film was an enormous success, worldwide, absolutely worldwide. It was called Shark Hunters, all on killing sharks, which in those days was not just acceptable, it it was praised.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02In those days. Different thing altogether.
SPEAKER_01So you were the one in the film that was killing the sharks, sparing them. Ron was filming you.
SPEAKER_02I don't agree with it now, of course, but in those days, we never once had a complaint.
SPEAKER_01It was it was very popular viewing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, oh yeah, enormous viewing. When the film ran on Channel 9, there were so many calls in saying we missed that, we want to see it, they replayed it a week later.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that's unusual.
SPEAKER_01Wow, people are really fascinated by sharks.
SPEAKER_02Well, a lot of people think the only good shark is a dead one, you know. That was the attitude. So we we headed off big time in our first one, and I did a couple more films. I took them over to America and sold them to uh a producer in New York, and had no idea that when I sold them, that I was the first Australian to ever sell to the giant American networks. Yeah, well you just need to try, I suppose. But I was lucky. I arrived in New York with three films to sell. Someone would give me the name of a the producer of a TV series. I just happened to ring when they badly needed three films. So that's that kicked off my uh career in uh making films and probably made a hundred or more, uh quite quite a lot. And all those first films were on shark hunting, on sharks. Yep. All of them, and then sea snakes and so forth. Sharks were the biggest sellers, so we we concentrated on sharks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Tell me about the encounter you have with a whale shark that life changing.
SPEAKER_02That changed me, yeah. A whale shark was a big news because one washed up in Botany Bay, so it was front page news, it was a monster. And then I heard that there was one down at Burmagoe, the island off there, Montague Island. And so we shot down there as quick as we could, went out, and lo and behold, we found it. It was still there. And I remember it it was rough, and I had to leave uh half my crew behind because it was too rough, too much weight, and just two of us ended up getting out there, and we went along where we were told, and there it was.
SPEAKER_01Very convenient. I feel like luck, or you know, Mother Nature has had your back a lot of the time.
SPEAKER_02It was just inside on the sheltered side of Montague Island, and that was it, yeah. And uh I had my diver sitting on the back riding on the shark, and I filmed it. I remember I was using old code chrome film, which was like 25 ASA. No, no, not 25, 10, 11, 12, very low. And in fact, uh the water was a bit dark and the picture was dark. Anyway, that went absolute worldwide.
SPEAKER_01Went viral, as we call it nowadays.
SPEAKER_02Well, we took photos of the 16mm film. So imagine a little frame like that. We blew it up, and uh the Sydney Sun ran three pages, the first three pages. London Sun ran, it was one of these big, big papers, and it was covered the whole front page, and right down the bottom it said Prime Minister Wilson, see page two. And National Geographic put it over their three-page foldo, and this was all taken from a tiny 16mm frame because I was filming, I didn't take any actual stills.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's amazing how much of a first it was to get that footage swimming with a whale shark because nowadays there's tours you can go on, especially like in Western Australia, where tourists can snuggle with whale sharks. But was that like the first time anyone had swum with a whale shark?
SPEAKER_02That's right. And it was so big, it was the first. Well, my friend Hans Hass did get a photo, but he had the telephoto lens in his camera. Oh, so it was just the eye or something. And he had to get right, right back. He was cursing it, cursing, and of course, the further back you go, the less clarity. So he got a pretty poor shot.
SPEAKER_01He was probably expecting it to be further away.
SPEAKER_02Well, he he wasn't expecting to run into it. And uh we went chasing it. But being the first, it's a lot easier to become famous if you're the first. And for a little diver, you know, six feet long, sitting on the back of a shark that was in, I still got to use uh the old figures, thirty-six feet long. He's tiny.
SPEAKER_01So that's approximately eleven meters, you know.
SPEAKER_02And the difference was it was enormous. People, I remember the London Sun said, You have never seen pictures like this before. You know, that was how unique it was, the first yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_02Even though the shark was harmless, it was still a shark.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so were people afraid of the whale shark back then or did they realize that it only eats plant then?
SPEAKER_02I th not many people met whale sharks in those days. Otherwise they would have got the pictures before me. But afterwards when uh Ningaloo, all those places opened up, to have a shop at whale shark really means nothing. It's too common now. It's uh so yes, you you've got to be the first. And and we were lucky that we were the first. Crusto hadn't started his TV series, and uh Hans. Yeah, well, actually, when he did start, I supplied all the shark footage for him. Not all, the first minute of his film was was all my footage. Uh Hans has had retired. So the world was open to us. And uh Ron Tal and I came in at a time where we just had no opposition. And because we made close contact with the sharks, it kicked off very good.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and of course, nowadays we have to emphasize that people shouldn't ride on their marine life or touch them.
SPEAKER_02Well, the whale shark wouldn't feel you.
SPEAKER_01Well, but especially because there's so many people snorkeling doing whale shark tourism now, it's there's obviously a lot more people, so they don't want to.
SPEAKER_02You you you'd be like a fly. So it changed my attitude because uh before that I was a shark hunter, and then I started to realize oh I'd rather go down and take film of live sharks, you know, keep them alive. And I changed. That's when I started to become a conservationist. And with sharks I stopped the killing, but I'd already set in place a sport of shark hunting.
SPEAKER_01A lot of people were trying to emulate the hunting that they saw in your film.
SPEAKER_02That's right. And so it continued for another six, ten years until public opinion changed. And I helped change that public opinion. And once public opinion changed, that sport was finished.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, shark hunting for sport has been sports into it now, isn't it? Uh but almost all of the nurse sharks were brought to the brink of extinction.
SPEAKER_02Well, they were an easy target. And in in those days, the grey nurse shark was regarded as a villain, as a man hunter.
SPEAKER_01Because they're big, they're kind of scary looking, they've got pointy teeth.
SPEAKER_02No, they they look fierce with their teeth there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I've dived with grey nurse sharks off the Sunshine Coast and they aggregate and they just sort of swim in circles, they're very sort of harmless. And nowadays people love scuba diving with them because they're actually not dangerous to humans, really, are they? They they've got these fork teeth at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_02I don't think it's been an attack. They're a fish eater, but I would not like to be bitten by one because they've got these big raking teeth. I I was responsible for getting those areas protected for gray nurse. Yeah, point lookout, wolf rock.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's that's near where I wolf rocking.
SPEAKER_02I got all those protected. I I I talked to the um our premier then and got them protected. So I went from killing Grey Nurse to protecting them. Uh but they deserve that, yes, they deserve it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I think you've been lucky. I mean, how many of your nine lives do you think you've used up with all of this sharp swimming?
SPEAKER_02I have been attacked, yeah. I have been any scars? Uh no, no. The only scars I've got are my legs where after 40 years of not riding a bike, I go and buy an electric one and fall off three times. And and I mean this is this is only last year, you know. I'm 89, so I fall off three times. And each time I fell off, the bike fell on me.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I had lots of, I'd even call the hammer, so many cuts and bruises. So I dumped that bike and I got myself a four-wheel one, which you can't roll over.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so technology more dangerous than sharks.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes. I I don't think I've actually I don't have an injury from sharks. I've been attacked, yeah. I've been worried, really worried. Uh, I've had them snap at me, all those things, but no shark has actually bit me.
SPEAKER_01Is there a technique for deflecting an attack on a shark?
SPEAKER_02No, it it's being careful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then when you get older, being ultra careful, which my son isn't now because he's younger and doing all the stupid things that I was I used to do. So if you survive all those. Then you become ultra careful. And there's a saying, there's old divers, there's bold divers, but there are no old bold divers, right? So that's me now. You can pretty bold. At night either. Foolish sometimes, but no, not bold anymore with sharks. They don't scare me, but when you get to 90 and you've never been bitten, you like to keep that score good. Stay with it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so one of your famous photos is of a shark coming right at you. How did you get that?
SPEAKER_02That was a tiger feeding on a marlin, so it wasn't very difficult. It was more concerned with eating the marlin. That photo just sold everywhere, over and over. It became the cover of so many books. Readers died, just oh, think of all the covers, because when they needed a photo of a shark, they go, Oh, yeah, we want that one. And even SeaWorld had it as their main one for selling their shark show. It was just an automatic, take one look at it, yeah, I'll buy it. And I just, it was fairly easy, really. I just set the camera on three feet and got down, took it, and jumped back on the boat again. It wasn't difficult.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But a lot of people wouldn't be experienced or brave enough to get that photo, so foolish. Wasn't gonna say it.
SPEAKER_02And and I see my son doing the same thing. I go, oh yeah. He's got to get past that stage until he gets a little bit more cautious. Otherwise, you don't survive it, you know.
"Dangerous and Scary:" Filming Crocodiles at Night
SPEAKER_01One of your documentaries that I watched on YouTube was Crocodile Island.
SPEAKER_02And oh that we went back to foolish on that, shouldn't bother. It was absolutely dangerous.
SPEAKER_01It was pretty dangerous.
SPEAKER_02We did, I think we did five nights there, and every time I was holding my breath, every time it was dangerous. And when we got to five, I said to my son, that's it. He said, Oh, we could do a bit more. I said, That's it. We've got the footage, we're alive, get out of it.
SPEAKER_01You were using uh this special night vision light, like a red light.
SPEAKER_02Infrared, but the trouble is Dean had the camera with the infrared. I wasn't You were the bait. Yeah, I wasn't.
SPEAKER_01You were running around with no light at all.
SPEAKER_02He could see what the crocodile was doing, but I couldn't. The infrared could see them. Uh Dean, when he was filming, could see all the crocodile, and believe me, there was something like 20 of them lined up.
SPEAKER_03It was actually really, really speaking.
SPEAKER_02And he just said, Dad, when I say run, really run, you know. And he was watching all the time, but I couldn't see. And what worried me more was not the crocodile out there, which were all lined up, but one that had come ashore and was behind us up the beach. That's what I was worried about. That that crocodile going up to try and get the baby turtles or the eggs could come roaring down to us. And that to me was the biggest worry. And I could not see anything. Yeah. It was dangerous and scary. Yeah. It really was. And we were close. I mean, sometimes the crocodiles only as far as Vicky over there. We were close.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and they can lunge suddenly. But the purpose of it was the crocodiles were all coming out of the ocean to snap up the baby turtles that were hatching out of the sand. So you ended up getting that footage, and it's really interesting. I guess at the time it was the first time anyone had filmed crocodiles munching on baby turtles.
SPEAKER_02It's sad, but that's uh nature. Yeah, you were in the docker. But they knew when they were coming, they they knew. You know, that's the amazing thing with nature. Another time when I was filming up at Ray Island, the the baby turtles hatching, we had a big storm come over, and the whole sky went uh dark because of the storm. And immediately the sharks came in because they thought it was night. And they they they were so conditioned that the turtles would hatch an hour after dark, and so an hour after the storm came in and blackened the sky, the turtles were hatching. And the sharks knew, and they were right there waiting. Oh wow. They quickly learn when it's ready to go and get the baby turtles.
SPEAKER_01When it's snap time. Yeah. Little McNuggets. And it's not just the sharks and
Box Jellyfish Encounters
SPEAKER_01crocodiles. Have you been stung by a box jellyfish?
SPEAKER_02Quite a few times. Yeah. What's that like?
SPEAKER_01Because they're meant to be prepared.
SPEAKER_02Actually, many times. I've been stung accidentally, and it really, really hurt. And I've been stung many times intentionally.
SPEAKER_01What why? How?
SPEAKER_02Uh to try and find a first aid treatment that worked.
SPEAKER_01Which scientist was subjecting you to this kind of study?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well You.
SPEAKER_01You subjected it on yourself.
SPEAKER_02On on me, yeah. So one says I got my wife to do it or a scientist to do it and put this jellyfish on my arm or whatever, and then pour methylain spirits or or whatever on it to see whether it worked. And uh none of them really worked. But they still stuck with a deadly. And then it became a good selling point. I would have people wanting to do a film on me with a box of jellyfish, and they always said, now we want you to sting yourself. And that became a fairly, fairly standard thing. But I I'm not stupid. I didn't sting myself with something was going to kill me. I I stung myself with a bit smaller one. Just something that would hurt, but not be deadly.
SPEAKER_01Smaller as in like just a smaller baby one.
SPEAKER_02There's two species. There's the the Coron X, which grows very big, about that round, huge tentacles. That one can kill you. I'd be stupid if I took that and put that on me. Stupid. And there's another one, another smaller one, that's only about that round.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And uh it's very common along Four Mile Beach at Port Tugus. Actually, if I want one, I just go to Port Tugus, Four Mile Beach. I get to know where they are. If I want a big one, just out here. But if I wanted the small ones, quadregatous they're called, go to Four Mile.
SPEAKER_01All the best recommendations for anyone that wants to find a jellyfish to sting yourself with.
SPEAKER_02And you don't have to go deep. Actually, I used to catch them, uh, I'd go in barefoot, and uh they were always in water about to my knee. So I didn't have to go any deeper. I just wade along, and my feet would touch them, and then I would make them calm to the surface, then I could grab them. That was actually how I got them. I had to go barefoot to feel their body.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so the ideal way to find a potentially deadly jellyfish is to walk barefoot up to your knees, which is what a lot of tourists do. So you know what not to do in the jellyfish season.
SPEAKER_02I know. They think it's all out in deep water. No, no, no. Most of the jellyfish I got were was knee deep, and said I had to use barefoot till I had to feel them, because they're not some of them on the surface. You've got to wear Polaroid sunglasses, you've got to be able to look for them, but some of them are down on the bottom. Sometimes I see their shadow on the bottom going along, and other times if the water's not that clear, I just wait till I bump one with my toes. And they immediately come up to the surface so I can grab them. Uh, but I'm talking about ones that are not will not kill you. So regardless will hurt you, but they won't kill you.
SPEAKER_01Pretty excruciating though, like you must have a pretty high pain tolerance to have stung yourself that many times.
SPEAKER_02The worst was I was filming, and my son was actually putting these things on me. He put one on here, and I put methylated spirits and uh another one here, put something else on, and I thought, oh, where else can I put? And I put it there. Oh my goodness. That really, really hurt. That r really hurt. And another time And your son was what, just filming you and laughing? I was really in pain. And uh uh another time I was testing out uh squeezing the juice out of a certain plant that the Aborigines are supposed to use. So I got this stuff and I got the jellyfish and I stung myself, and then I tried to squeeze the stuff and nothing would come out. You know, the juice wasn't coming up properly, so so I had to throw it away, grab the uh the other stuff we used, the vinegar, and pour vinegar over to stop it. But I think I think the worst was I I was with the expert one day, and uh he caught a big one, a real big one, and put it up on the side of the dinghy, and when he took it again for filming, he left some tentacles on the dinghy. Oh no. And me not thinking, I'm getting rid of and I actually sit right on those tentacles, and I got all my lower body.
SPEAKER_04Oh no.
SPEAKER_02And I'm in pain, and tears are streaming down, and I had to keep filming.
SPEAKER_04Oh no.
SPEAKER_02And he's sort of saying, Come on, you know, none of this crying, be a man, come out, do it. And I'm seriously wounded, stung, and had to keep on filming. I remember the tears streaming down and trying to finish the film because he wasn't gonna wait. Yeah. So yes, I've been stung many times, many times.
SPEAKER_01The cookaburra thinks that's kind of funny.
SPEAKER_02She's laughing at the dog. They're out there having a laugh. So um sharks, no, never got a bite. Box jellyfish, yes, yes.
Shipwreck Hunting
SPEAKER_01How did you first get interested in searching for shipwrecks?
SPEAKER_02Well, at first, when I'm talking about 1954, we actually blew the wrecks up. Because again, we were here, again, remember we were selling all our fish. We had no money, so if we wanted to go and do all these things, uh, we had to get some side income. I mean, I was a school teacher, and I I was getting $10 a week.
SPEAKER_01As a school teacher, did you say?
SPEAKER_02Well, I was in my training, I was getting less than that. And when I even became a school teacher, I was only on about $20 a week.
SPEAKER_01I mean really So you had to blow up shipwrecks to get gold to blue.
SPEAKER_02Well, we had to go and make extra money. And so some of these shipwrecks had uh a lot of brass and copper and lead and so forth, so we had to go in and and blow apart the uh condenser that had all these copper tubes and so on, and sell it to scrap. And uh most of these wrecks that we blew up are still there, but they've disappeared under sand anyway. They're not seen anymore. So that's how we first started, and then I started to get interested in in the archaeological side of going and finding shipwrecks. And I end up good at it, I guess, because I discovered about, oh, say, a hundred or so, and I don't think anyone else had discovered any more than four or five.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, which is wild. How did you get so good at finding shipwrecks that you've found over a hundred?
SPEAKER_02And well, f firstly, going out and finding shipwrecks is costly, cost money. But I was able to write them off in my film budget. So I'd do films of finding the Pandora, finding shipwrecks with maybe treasure and so forth. I made quite a lot of films that actually had shipwrecks, and I used a film budget, otherwise I couldn't afford. And that's why other people couldn't afford, because it just simply cost. And as it went on, I got better and better at locating them. And then I reached the point of not being able to find any more because I'd found all the easy ones, and I had to use a magnetometer. I didn't own a magnetometer, uh, we have one now, and so I had to go into that second stage, which was very, very slow, you know, with with the magnetometer. But initially, we went up north and we worked along all the reefs, and we found 25 shipwrecks in two weeks.
SPEAKER_01Wow. So they're just there for the finding if anyone knows what they're looking for.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, in those days we uh polar sunglasses were the most important. We'd run along the reef close as we could get to the outer, about half tide, and just look for dark shapes. You know, the look things that were man-made, not natural. And we'd drop a boy on it and then just keep going, and we'd work a whole reef and drop a few boys for the wrecks with it, then come back and start diving on them. And that's how in two weeks we we picked up twenty-five, including the Pandora, which is the most famous one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I think there's something over two thousand shipwrecks on the Great Barry Reef as well.
SPEAKER_02Oh, more than I they they say 10,000. Wow. Uh I don't know. So to find just a hundred is is not very.
SPEAKER_01It sounds like a drop in the ocean when you put it like that. But yeah, it's really been a dangerous place to navigate throughout history, so it's claimed a lot of things.
SPEAKER_02In the early days, they didn't even know about the the reefs out in the Coral Sea, so they'd go along happily at night and run into them. Wreck Reef out there has about five wrecks. Uh, Ken Reef north of there, I found six wrecks there, or way back in the in the early 60s. My son went back there, re-found the ones I'd found, and then found a few more. And someone else went there and found a few more again. Uh just that one place, Ken Reef, probably has 15 shipwrecks on it.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Talking about the Pandora, that's one of the most famous shipwrecks you've found. So, for anyone who isn't familiar with the history, what was the story of the Pandora?
SPEAKER_02Well, it was bringing back the mutineers of the bounty. Not all were mutineers, you know, a few were, and the others simply were left behind when the guy, Christian, put Bly in the long boat and sent him off. He couldn't take everyone. So the ones that got left behind were treated as mutineers and they weren't. And they were badly, badly treated. And on the way back, they were trying to get through the outer barrier reef and hit a reef.
SPEAKER_01Which one or whereabouts?
SPEAKER_02It didn't have a name. It was just north of a nothing had a name up there. So finding it was it was difficult. It took us a couple of weeks to find it. Normally we'd find a shipwreck in one day. And when it took two weeks to find the Pandora, I was saying, Jesus, two weeks to find a bloody wreck.
SPEAKER_01Tough gig.
SPEAKER_02And also it was in about uh 30 metres of water, so that makes it even more difficult.
SPEAKER_01You can't do a long dive at 30 metres.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so to find shipwrecks, not only do you need the budget to go out on lots of boat trips and to be an experienced diver, but you must also have a really good, well-read understanding of history because you have to research where you think those ships might be.
SPEAKER_02Well, a lot of it is um skipper as well. You know, a lot a lot of people who talk about these shipwrecks, they're armchair detectives. They're not they're not sailors. And I've got the advantage that when I do my research, I can think like the skipper. And that helps a lot. And there's a lot of detective work that goes into a lot of research, a lot of detective work. But again, I think as a skipper, what would happen and so forth. And that gives me a lot more information.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like what would the captain have done in this situation of such a storm?
SPEAKER_02The logic. I I believe very strong in logic. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, it's worked out well
Shipwreck Artefacts & Museum
SPEAKER_01for you. What are the rules around collecting treasures from shipwrecks?
SPEAKER_02Uh enormous.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, you've got a few artifacts like I love your teapot. The teapot with the coral attached to it.
SPEAKER_02I don't own them, I'm custodian.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02I'm custodian, I don't actually own them. They were from my museum where I was custodian, and the museum doesn't exist anymore. So I've got bits and pieces, but I do not own them.
SPEAKER_01So all shipwrecks belong to the crown on the crown, yes.
SPEAKER_02And and you're supposed not to touch it if you can get a couple of years' jail.
SPEAKER_01Well, there's plenty of film footage of you touching stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, most of this is in the old days. Yeah. Before these rules came out. Okay. And now you can touch it, but you can't move it or take it. Yeah. You know, you can end up a c a couple of years' jail. And if you find something really, really valuable like gold, you can't take it, you can't keep any of it, you have to hand all of it to the government. And lately, I used to get some rewards, uh, very small, like I got $5,000 for finding a Pandora, and it cost me $10,000. You lose them all the way. But now they've taken even that out, and they said, no more rewards, because these guys, they believe that the finder is not important. When I found the Pandora, they didn't put my name down. They said a diver. A diver. And I had to fight them to get my name there because I wasn't just a diver. But that was their attitude, and still their attitude that the finder is not important. We're not going to give them a reward. It's us diving on it later. Our important.
SPEAKER_01It's an excavating team, the archaeological team.
SPEAKER_02So the state wants to talk about it. But it's it's an arrogance in academia. It's an arrogance that only a scientist knows what he's talking about. And here I might know a hundred times more than a scientist, but I'm not a scientist. So therefore I don't know what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_01And so they've taken what they want to other museums and left the rest out there?
SPEAKER_02Well, with the Pandora they've they've excavated a lot, a real lot. But that probably only a quarter of what is still down there. Pandora went down with everything. And it was very important because it was like a time capsule of a British man of war of what everything it carried. Everything. Because the sailors and everyone got off, you know, they just got off with what they wore, nothing else. So everything else is down there. A time capsule. And uh it's the only British man of war for Australia that exists.
SPEAKER_01So with the fact that nowadays no one's allowed to take anything if they find a shipwreck, pretty much just means that they want everything to display.
SPEAKER_02You can't be a pirate anymore.
SPEAKER_01No, you can't be a pirate anymore. You just can't do anything funny.
SPEAKER_02I used to call myself a good pirate. Now I can't even be that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but I guess at least you were displaying everything in your museum, which I only just found out when I was reading up that the Sugar Wharf building in Port Douglas, is that where you used to have your museum? So it's a historic building over the water on Stilts Over the Water.
SPEAKER_02The best place I've ever lived in my life.
SPEAKER_01It's got a beautiful view, such that nowadays it's used for weddings. And I think. No, but I didn't realise until when I read about it yesterday that you used that used to be your home. You used to live there.
SPEAKER_02It was the best home I've ever had. It's just very rustic. Yeah, it was great. Twenty years I I loved it. I cried when they wouldn't let me stay there anymore. Simply, the council here does not care about heritage. The conservation, yes, because that's tourism. But heritage, no. We we have enormous heritage here. Probably except for some place in Sydney, up in this area, we have enormous heritage. And tourists actually are interested in that, but council's not because it does not make money.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a shame as someone that likes to go and spend the weekend at Port Douglas every now and then. It's a beautiful destination, and it would be so nice if one of the things you could do while you're there is to go and to a shipwreck museum. But there isn't one anymore. So it's a shame.
SPEAKER_02It's very, very sad. I actually finally, 25 years I tried to get the museum back there. And every council, every mayor would say, Oh yeah, it's a good idea, we'll think about it. Twenty-five years of thinking about it, and finally I said, That's it. I'm 90, you know, I can drop it anytime. I've got to get it somewhere, and it's going into the Townsville Maritime Museum. And that's a shame it should be here. But if I didn't do that, I would die and the stuff's still in storage. So I had to get, you know, it's a it's one of my legacies to leave behind uh these things I found. And uh while I've got a few here just knickknacked for my own private look at, uh the rest of it uh will be in town for, which is very sad, very wrong. But that's what council's priority is make money. If it doesn't make money, throw it out, forget it.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'll have to make sure to go and see it when I'm in Townsville next.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's not it's not fully uh opened yet. I was down there only a couple of weeks ago, and uh they're still preparing it very, very, very slow.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I watched your two and a half of your documentaries, um a really good one where you're where you're off five. Shipwrecks. Shipwrecks.
SPEAKER_02Well, shipwrecks was always a hobby. I never made money out of shipwrecks, but it was a very, very strong hobby. And I said being a budget in my films enabled me to get out and follow my my hobby.
SPEAKER_01It makes for a really good film because you developed a good story where everyone's waiting to see if you're gonna find the treasure. And uh I don't want to spoil it, I think everyone should go and watch it to find out.
SPEAKER_02I'd be in jail if I did. Because I have to come to a choice. Do I seal it or do I hand to the government? And that's a big decision to make, very big. And I thought, maybe it's best I don't find it and I don't have that decision to make.
SPEAKER_01Well, we will never know if maybe you did find it and just chose not to put that in the documentary.
SPEAKER_02But that is bad. No, I'm I wouldn't be on a pending, would I?
SPEAKER_01And we talked about crocon lumeland, which was really good. And I uh only got halfway through much of the crabs before I came here, but it was really fun. Uh definitely a very good documentary about the crabs of Christmas umel and I'm looking forward to watching the rest of it when I get home. Actually, pretty funny. People were trying to play tennis and soccer and the crabs were running across the field and getting stuck to the tennis net.
SPEAKER_02The people in the sales in America, the buyer said that is the funniest documentary I've seen. That was a big word. Because usually documentaries are not funny.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, it was also sad when those poor crabs get run over by cars, but uh you know, don't know what happens at the end of the film.
SPEAKER_02And for crab to crawl down into a blowhole and the water blows and it goes flying up in the air. It it was funny, poor crab, but it was still funny.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it is it is actually really funny. Animals are amazing.
Fame
SPEAKER_01So who are some of the famous personalities that you've met and dived with?
SPEAKER_02Surprised me a lot, surprised me. I mean, my hero first uh was Hans Hass, but later I met Hans, we became friends, we worked together on a film and so forth. Uh Cusso was never my hero. I did meet him a couple of times. I found him arrogant, and other people said the same thing. But that French arrogance, you know. His sons, no, I've known I knew his sons quite well, but they were not arrogant. So those, but um, I had Clint Eastwood on the boat. He came out. What was he like? I mean he's when people get, even if they're very famous, when they get out in a boat, they come down to your level, right? You don't go up to their level, they come down. They're just ordinary people, and that's a wonderful thing. So Clint Eastwood was just a normal guy, fishing mackerel. Anyway, uh him, oh Leonard Nimoy. Leonard Nimoy, he hosted 12 of my shows, so he was he was on board. Leonard Thiel, I don't know, you probably don't remember Leonard Thiel. He was in homicide TV shows. The president of IBM, which then was the biggest company in the world, he came on board, and he and his wife were just nice people. You know, Rupert Murdoch, the same thing. When they're on board, they're just ordinary people.
SPEAKER_01And because I used to charter a lot, what you're saying is, if you've got a boat, anyone in the world is your friend.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's right. And they all come on and they all downsize themselves back to my level or even below my level because I'm the skipper.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, they've got to do what you say once they're on the boat.
SPEAKER_02In the early days, I saw a lot of films in America, and so I was mixing with. I accidentally were running into these people all the time because I had to sell my films in Hollywood. Disney, I never met Walt Disney, but I met his brother. Can't think of his name now. They're all they're all dead, that's the trouble. They're just all dead.
The Search for Pre-Cook European Explorers
SPEAKER_01Our history books typically say that the English captain James Cook was the first European explorer to sail these waterways of the Queensland coast in 1770. Do you believe that's true?
SPEAKER_02No, no. Captain Cook was the first officially recorded in 1770. There were others before him. I mean, the British will not admit that, but yes. And most historians believe the Portuguese were here first. I'm not sure, but the Portuguese were here, definitely, definitely. And in fact, I've got proof that they were here passing by here in 1523. That's a long, long while before Cook. 1523.
SPEAKER_01It's more than 200 years before 1773.
SPEAKER_02Nearly 250 years before Cook. But we do not know the name of the person, the name of the ship, or the date. And without those three things, he's not a discoverer. We just know that there was a map published in 1547. Uh it was called the Vallard Map, and uh it showed all of Australia. And we assume it's Portuguese because 97% of the names are Portuguese and just a few are French. No English, no Spanish. We know that a Portuguese grew this map of Australia well prior to 1547. That's when it was published. And uh it's definitely Australia. Some of the East Coast is so clearly marked that the coastline is better than what Cook did or even Flinders. And to give you an example, Fraser Island on the Portuguese chart shows it as an island. Both Cook and Flinders showed it as a peninsula because they never went right around to the back of it. So the accuracy is remarkable, and uh there is something like over a hundred place names on the map, and they were all descriptive. Not like the English who named something after Lord So-and-so and that. These were descriptive. If it was a Green Cape, it was called Green Cape. If it was a a narrow entrance or something, they would give it a name that described what it was, right? Which was good. It's easier anyway to find these places because uh it's got a descriptive name. So, yes, the Portuguese were here. I've worked out that they were on the East Coast uh 1522-23, passing here about late 1523, and then uh the we I'm pretty sure they were Spanish as well, but again we've got no proof. There were ships that never got home. But their purpose was to find the Great Southland, and they never got home. And then there were three expeditions in the 1640s that came out for gold. The first one got a lot of gold, raced back to tell the king, who who had actually sent the ship out because he needed money to pay for his wars, and a second ship came out with a couple hundred miners on board. We don't know what they found because the ship disappeared. But some of us have got home because on a world map in in uh 1651 it actually shows where they were. But it was a big ship, a carak, it just totally disappeared. You know, gold does funny things to people, and there could have been a mutiny, it could have been just a shipwreck, whatever it is, all that gold disappeared in most of the people. But always out of a shipwreck, someone gets back, and and you don't really hear about it. Like the captain, his allegiance was to the King of Spain. But the crew, they would have no such allegiance. It could have been from anywhere. And maybe there was a Frenchman who got home and he told the cartographers there, and they put it on the map. It always gets back, we don't know who.
SPEAKER_00It's a question Ben is determined to answer by finding artifacts of pre-cook European visitors. Sixteen years ago, Ben got a tip-off from a friend who told him that some decades earlier, while installing a marker in a remote area, he had come across a rock in the wilderness with engraved writing in a European language. That friend has now passed away, but since then, Ben has spent countless hours of his free time hiking through the wilderness trying to find it. Using clues from history books and old maps, he believes he is tantalisingly close to finding this treasure.
SPEAKER_02So that is what I'm looking for because there's an engraved rock out there, which is that big, which I assume will have the name of the person, the name of the ship, and the date. And once we get that, we have a new discovery of Australia. Not just the East Case like Cook, all of Australia. And I love changing history. Muggering it up a little bit. And uh I want to do that because we don't get much transparency these days, not with politicians. And I'd like to come out with the truth, the real, real truth of the first Europeans. And we still don't know exactly who was here before Cook. But we know someone was here. We know that.
SPEAKER_01I'm absolutely intrigued and I'm very invested to learn of when you finally find your discovery.
SPEAKER_02Oh, look, I've got to. It's the top of my bucket list, and I keep going back because I've got to find it while I can.
SPEAKER_01It's like your holy girl.
SPEAKER_02I'm quite capable of going there now, so I go there. It's number one priority of my bucket list, and I've got to fulfill it. And I'm running out of time.
SPEAKER_01Well, if anyone is going to be able to do it, it'll be you with all your skills.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Well, I know a lot of places where it's not, you know. That's one thing. Anyone else would have to start again.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I know where it's not, and I know where it may be, but I know it exists because there are the maps, and the maps tell you a lot. I found a map which historians hadn't taken any notice of it. It had the uh latitude, and this map has exactly the same latitude as where I'm looking. And an exact drawing of the coastline as I know it. Now that simply means that there was someone there in the early 1500s who drew that map, and uh I can recognize it because I know the coastline very well. And it's precisely where we're looking.
SPEAKER_01Well, stay tuned, everyone, to find out the results.
SPEAKER_02Maybe this weekend, maybe if I'm so lucky. Oh can you imagine spending 16 years? Figure things I've got a girl up there because I'm all all the time going up there. I work myself to death. I'm so exhausted at the end of the day. You know, you know, climbing hills and mountains and headlands and so forth. Hard hard for me at my age to do. But I go there so much she thinks I must have a girlfriend up there.
SPEAKER_01Are you trekking alone? No. No.
SPEAKER_02We go in pairs because we're both old, both of us, the other guy, uh Hubert Hofer, an old old friend, King Rick Hunter. No, we we both could fall down anytime, yeah, just drop.
Marine Conservation, Water Pollution and Reef Changes
SPEAKER_01What changes have you seen over your 70-ish years of diving, especially on the Great Barrie Reef, in terms of environmental impact?
SPEAKER_02So basically, today you could go on the reef, out of barrier, I'm talking about, and you would not see much difference to 70 years ago. The inner ones, the coastal ones just here, bad. And they are because of pollution. Once the place gets enough pollution, it dies off for most forever. Very hard to get it back again. And only just recently are they starting to spend money on that. They call it water quality, but same thing. The outer barrier and ningaloo and so forth, they're surviving because it's a long way from the pollution. Saving grace is it's well offshore. But the inshore reefs, if we don't combat the pollution, we'll stay most of it dead.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, which is largely land-based runoff from agriculture and things like that.
SPEAKER_02Well, there's a lot of it. There's even dredging, spoil coming out and being dumped out there and the washes back in, and it's highly toxic. There's a whole lot of things. And uh the soil with all the chemicals that kill the coral has smothers the coral as well, the sediment. We call that eutrophication. All those things. And even overdevelopment is another one. They're starting to work on that, and they're starting to get the farmers behind them to do it. So that's that's good. But I mean, I've fought for years to save the mangroves. Mangroves are probably, you probably say, the most important plant in the world. Took years and years for me to win a case saving the mangroves. Which ones? I saved the ones at Port Douglas. Scase wanted to wipe out nine uh holes of golf. He wanted to put another nine holes in, wanted to wipe them all out. And actually, I I had a $100,000 contract with him every year. And so I took a hell of a chance going up against Scase when he was my main benefactor. But uh when I I won, I immediately found him, he was on the golf course. I immediately went over and I said, sorry, mate, I I had to go up against you on that. And he said, That's all right, Ben. I knew you'd have to. And that was it. So I liked the guy then. He could have easily just wiped me. You know, 100,000 contract gong. But he showed a lot of decency. No matter what people might say about Christopher's case, I saw a good side of him, a good side. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You had all the right contacts, you knew everyone, and people respected you, so it sounds like you've been able to make a big difference for conservation.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, but there's a risk when you go up against your main benefactor. But yeah, it took years and years to uh get my first win. And after that it was easy.
SPEAKER_01So speaking about water quality, we've done other interviews on the podcast and talked to various scientists about the problem of water pollution, but you've been around for longer than them and seen it firsthand. So, what sort of personal first hand experience have you had? Have you witnessed one of your favourite inshore reefs just disappear, or have you had something that you were like very attached to that you've lost?
SPEAKER_02Well, I've seen places like Green Island and Low Isles deteriorate from pollution. And and other factors, but mostly pollution. You've got to start with a baseline. All scientists have to. And they didn't start their baseline until, oh, I forget what it is, but I went out there and filmed them. Ames. Brody was the name of the guy. I filmed him. He did his first water quality test off Port Douglas.
SPEAKER_01In the 80s, probably?
SPEAKER_02Maybe 90s. Maybe 90s. But uh, yeah, I'd say so because I was making a film on coral reef stying around the world, and I filmed him, but that was his first. And I'd been diving another 30, 40 years before then, and seen all these changes.
SPEAKER_01So you're saying it was already quite degraded by the time Ames did their first thing. Monitoring, yeah.
SPEAKER_02When I was interviewing people over in uh Florida, I interviewed two people, one who'd been diving for 25 years, and another one who'd been diving for 10 years. Both the diagnosis. The one diving 25 years said, Oh, I remember it was a beautiful reef, absolute beautiful. And then nearly 25 years ago, it just collapsed. So then I talked to the guys who hadn't been diving 10 years, and he says, Oh, it's a little worse than what I first saw it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02He never saw it how it was before. How it was before. And that's the trouble. I see these things before they were damaged, and I know what they're like. And not enough people, or scientists, ask me, because I'm not a scientist. Again, remember I said that they they believe only a scientist knows what they're talking about, and yet I go back 70 years.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I want to interview you then, because I know no one else has seen it as long as you have.
SPEAKER_02And myself and Valerie Taylor, we're the ones who've taken a real note of the Barry Reef. And we're both in our 90s. She's the same age as me and could drop dead anytime. And I'm always very willing to talk about it because I'd like to have it on record.
The Secret to a Long Full Life
SPEAKER_01What is the secret to a long and healthy life? Because you've obviously uh nailed it and you're going really strong and still doing what you like.
SPEAKER_02Okay, Channel 10 did a story on me and they asked the same thing. And in fact, that was the headline. How do you live to 90? Well, basically, for me, I don't stop. I keep on going even when I'm buggered to use the word, even when I'm tired or that, I still keep on going and still and I have a bucket list. You've got to have that bucket list, that goal. Even though you might be 80, 90, still have that goal and go for it. And I have this other motto, don't stop. Don't stop and uh become a couch potato, no way. Go for that goal.
SPEAKER_01Keep doing what you love, keep looking for buried treasure, going out in boat.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, best thing is don't find the buried treasure because then you come under the government and bureaucracy and you've got a nightmare. You look for it, but really it's better not to find it.
SPEAKER_01What do you love so much about diving and being in the water with marine life?
SPEAKER_02Well, originally when I started diving, I was in New Virgin Territory. I was diving in places, the first to dive, say Borom Bay, the Julian Rocks, I was the first to dive there, first to dive Cook Island, first to dive the uh ones off Coff's Harbour, the Saltries. And I've got a wonderful memory about that because being the first, I saw it absolute pristine. No one else will ever see what I saw. My sons will never see those places like I saw them. And I was lucky to be able to go through that period. Uh I loved the period I grew up in.
SPEAKER_01Times have definitely changed over the last 90 years. What sort of philosophical lessons do you think you've learned from spending so much time underwater and on the ocean?
SPEAKER_02Well, my films taught me that because to make a film, say on box jellyfish or mangroves or sea snakes, you have to spend a lot of time studying them. And by the end of the film, you are actually an expert. You know a lot more than most people about those subjects. And sharks, especially, because I did quite a lot of shark films at first. But what I like now is that I inspired people. A lot of people started diving or took up photography or whatever because of watching my films. I was their inspiration, and that makes you feel good. It really does. I have so many people come in to me and saying, You inspired me to go and do these things. And that's important. I had a mentor. I like to be a mentor to other people.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for all that you
Final Message
SPEAKER_01do. What message do you want to pass on to the next generation?
SPEAKER_02Well, get out there and enjoy life. That's important. Get out and be active. It's terrible what how the kids are growing up now, not outdoors. I was brought up outdoors. My kids grew up outdoors. And it's a wonderful teaching. Wonderful to be with nature and growing up with nature. Not in a city where the phone is more important because it's not more important. And so please, all young people, put that phone down, get out, go fishing, go bicycle, take risks. Doesn't matter. We all took risks when we were kids, we all survived. Kids these days get mollycoddled too much. You mustn't do this, you mustn't climb a tree because you might fall out. So what? We all fell out of trees. It's growing up.
SPEAKER_01I can confirm I fell headfirst out of a tree when I was a kid. Explains a lot, right?
SPEAKER_02That's right. So it's you know, you break an arm. So what? That's growing up. Get out there and be active because you'll get far more pleasure in your life out with nature. I mean, really, really, we we are part of nature. And the more you're out there, the more satisfaction you'll get. And as far as diving, diving is great because you can go underwater and your mind forgets about all the problems on land. You're so busy watching this beautiful, colourful world and all the fish flitting around that you're totally absorbed with watching them and forgetting what's on land. And that probably is the best thing of going underwater and scuba diving, is the way it takes your mind from the problems and you're looking at something new. And every dive, every walk, everything, you will see something new. And you won't if you stay here. But once you get out there and look and be observant, you will see new things every day, and you'll learn.
SPEAKER_01Ben, you're an inspiration. Thanks so much for all your amazing work and best of luck with all of your upcoming adventures. And thanks so much for your time today for this interview.
SPEAKER_02And remember, don't stop until you drop.
SPEAKER_01Good advice.
