SPEAKER_01 0:37

Hi Ocean lovers, just a quick note before we dive in. I highly recommend checking out the YouTube version of this episode because I recorded the interview live on a dive boat with a fantastic local Indonesian guide. As you can imagine, there was plenty of enthusiastic gesturing that doesn't quite come across in audio. I've also overlaid the conversation with lots of my own footage of the incredible marine life we encountered on the trip. I spent absolutely ages editing this video, which isn't something that I have time to do for every episode. So if you'd like the full experience and to see all the extraordinary animals we were lucky enough to dive with, click the link in the show notes and head over to the Word on the Reef YouTube channel to watch the episode. Of course, if you're listening to this while driving, walking, or tackling the housework, you're already in exactly the right place. The audio version stands on its own as a vivid story, and I hope you enjoy the journey just as much. Have a great dive! You're listening to Word on the Reef, diving into marine science on the Great Barrier Reef and beyond with Tanya Murphy and Brett Woodband. In October last year, my partner and I had the pleasure of spending five days aboard a liverboard dive boat exploring Indonesia's spectacular Komodo Islands National Park near the island of Flores in eastern Indonesia. Indonesia sits on the equator, so it's warm and tropical year-round. It's famous for its beaches, world-class surfing, and incredible food, but underneath the surface lies something even more remarkable, some of the most biodiverse coral reefs on Earth. The Komodo Islands National Park is famous as the home of the world's largest lizard, the Komodo Dragon. But among divers, it's known for something else. It's widely regarded as one of the best diving destinations anywhere on the planet. So naturally, I went in with pretty high expectations, and somehow it exceeded them. Getting there is easy. Most visitors fly via Bali, one of Indonesia's major international gateways, before taking a short one-hour flight east to Florence. And honestly, that flight is one of the highlights. I spent most of it with my face pressed up against the window, taking in the breathtaking views of rainforests, volcanic mountains, and the glowing turquoise reefs. Our destination was La Wambajo, a small harbor town on the western tip of Flores, and the jumping-off point for adventures into the Komodo Islands National Park. Now, if your impression of Indonesia comes entirely from the busy tourist streets of Bali, it's worth remembering that Indonesia is one of the most diverse countries on Earth. It's made up of more than 17,000 islands, and no two are the same. The country is home to more than 1,300 recognized ethnic groups speaking hundreds of different languages. For thousands of years, indigenous communities have maintained their unique cultures, traditions, and ways of life across this vast archipelago. Over the centuries, traders, fishermen, and colonizers have added further layers of influence. The result is a fascinating mix of cultures. While Indonesia's national religion is predominantly Islam, Bali is overwhelmingly Hindu. Flores, meanwhile, has a strong Catholic heritage thanks to centuries of Portuguese influence. Dutch and Japanese occupations have also left their mark on the region. As I'm someone who's familiar with the temples, ceremonies, and flavours of Hindu Bali, arriving in Flores felt like stepping into a completely different country. One moment you're surrounded by rice patties and coconut groves, and the next you're passing Catholic churches and Portuguese colonial architecture. Before boarding our dive boat, my partner and I spent three days exploring Western Flores with a local guide named Philan, who was an absolute legend. Born and raised in Flores, Phelan introduced us to local customs, traditions, and daily life. We visited a traditional village where families live in communal longhouses, they weave textiles, they harvest candle nuts from the rainforests and maintain cultural practices that stretch back generations. There were these huge ancient stone megaliths standing alongside their Catholic crosses. Ancient ceremonies honouring ancestors and volcano spirits continue alongside the more recently introduced Christian traditions. It was a really fascinating example of how cultures adapt and evolve over time. And everywhere we went, curious children came running over to say hello, which was really cute. Along the way, we soaked in hot springs, wandered through bustling markets, visited coffee plantations, and climbed Mount Kelamutu before dawn to watch the sunrise over its famous crater lakes whose colours change and shift over time due to changing volcanic chemistry. It's absolutely incredible. But as fascinating as the island of Flores was, we're here today to talk about the reef. So it's time to step aboard our liverboard vessel, the Makumbadua, and set sail for the Komodo Islands National Park. What makes this place such a world-renowned diving destination? What marine life can you expect to see? Which dive sites are the standouts? When is the best time to visit? What environmental challenges is this park facing? And what are local communities doing to help protect it? To answer these questions, I sat down on the final day of our trip with cruise director and dive instructor Willie. Born and raised on Flores, Willie has spent the past 17 years guiding divers through the waters of Komodo and has witnessed firsthand the changes taking place above and below the surface. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. Willie! Thank you so much for this amazing trip. We're on a boat called Mikumbadua. We did a five-day live aboard trip and it was amazing. All the staff were great, really friendly, we had fun. We did karaoke last night, which was super fun. Everyone was dancing. We had different songs from all over different countries, and Willie sang us his local songs in local language. We had really good food and we also did some amazing treks up to see the most beautiful sunset. I had the best time. This is one of the best diving holidays of my life. I I saw things in Komodo Islands that I've never seen anywhere else. So, first of all, thank you so much. Can you tell us a bit about yourself? Introduce yourself, where are you from?

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Well, my name is Willie and I came from the island, we call it Flores Island here. And I came from the middle part of the island. And I live in Labon Baja for uh 19 years. And I became a square diver for about 17 years overall.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

17 years?

SPEAKER_00 7:30

17 years.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Oh, that's a pretty long time.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Yeah, I became uh pro 2009. And since then I uh diving is my job. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

I uh became a dive master in 2011. 2011. So you're more experienced than me. At what age uh did you get into scuba diving? Did you have a different job beforehand, or this was your first job?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Well actually after I finished my uh high school, I decided to come to Labon Bajo because I was studying tourism at high school. And I decided to come to Labon Bajo and I was working to one of the diving centers here. And every end of the trips, every day at the end of the day, all the guests came to the table and they were shopping me in the picture about underwaters and like sharks, mantras, and some refuses. And since then I was like, okay, this is gonna be my patience. And 2007 I started my diving. Then yeah, 2009 I became a pro, yeah, and I like it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

You're kind of like me. I actually grew up a little bit inland in Australia, and then when I started to see what's in the ocean, I just fell in love with it. So same as me too.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Yeah. I came from the inland. I I went to the oceans after I finished my high school. I learned in Labon Bajo in Flores, and I'm really happy and I'm really proud of it that I make it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Yeah, actually we did a tour of Flores Island. We went to the center part of Flores and we actually met some locals and some people actually told us that they uh don't know how to swim. Did you know how to swim when you were young or you just learned when you were adult?

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Most of the time, people on the on the island forest itself. We I came from the inlands. We don't have pool at schools, you know. But we have a river, and at the river we have freshwater pool. So after school times we went to the pool and we learned how to swim and everything. And then after I finished my high school, I came to Laban Bajo, then I learned how to swim in open oceans. And then it it was really a lot of fun, and because it's big, so compared to the place where I came from, to the river, to the pool at the place where I came from, a lot of fun, and I was like it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Yeah, yeah. Once the ocean gets a hold of you, yeah. So what do you love most about the ocean or about diving?

SPEAKER_00 9:53

I like being on the oceans. I like first is you have a fresh air. Fresh air and you have nice scenery around you. It's really for a view around and really open. And ocean is a place where I do a lot of meditations, you know, because when I'm at the ocean here, I feel a lot of peace here. And then doing diving also, being underwater also is is it's a lot of fun, you know. It's a different different environment, you know, and then a lot of fish and a lot of corals, and it's really cool, it's really amazing the things that I haven't seen on land and being underwater, like so excited, you know. When I was in my village, you know, we bought a lot of dried fish because there never know fresh fish. Because it's far in the mountain and people selling fish when the when the fish all are dried. And I was thinking like, wow, this dried fish, and what's gonna happen when they are under the sea level, under the water, and you know, and then I decided to be a diver and I saw it, I was like, wow, it's really amazing, and I really thanks God, it's really amazing. I'm really, really super lucky of being uh people from Flores and National Park here, Komodo. You know, National Park is really one of the best, and and I'm a part of it here, so I'm really proud and I'm very lucky.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Yeah, the last dive we did just then was so beautiful. I felt like it was like a meditation as well. There's just like millions of fish. Can't even see my buddy because there's so many fish. Yeah, yeah. So peaceful. Yeah, I actually I feel sad that today is our last day. I don't want to go home. Yeah, so yeah, Komodo Islands. What would you say if you're recommending to anyone coming from around the world? What are the best dive sites to look for when you come to the Komodo Marine Park?

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yeah, Komodo is it is true, it's one of the best places to dive at the moment. And here a lot of fish we have, a lot of mantas, corals everywhere, fish everywhere. And all of this is because of VR, all of the dive community here, all of the dive guides all around Indonesia who are working here in Komodo, especially the divers from the island itself. VR we commit to protect the coral reefs or national parks. And that's what's happening now. Like the corals fees everywhere, it's mantras everywhere. I think it's part of our struggling of protecting these things, you know. As you know, that during the briefing we said, like please be a part of not kicking any corals, you know, being a part of picking up any rubbish down there, and because it's so nice, so beautiful here in Kumanas Park. And also here we have some currents. Uh strong that yeah, it is strong, but we never jump when the current is super strong, you know. And because of the current, it's bringing a lot of nutrients, make coral reefs grow healthier and healthier. Yeah, so that's why Kurash National Park here is really, really beautiful. And for some people who are divers or who are uh willing to do some holiday in corn national parks, if they want to see monthray, it will be better like what you are doing now, like end of October, because end of October is the season for Mantrei.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

We saw so raining manta.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yeah, it's always coming when the rainy season starts here, and Mantas is coming. And they are going back somewhere at the beginning of the year, April, they are going somewhere else. Still inside the park, still inside the park, but they are different places. Like what we did two, three days ago, it was really, really perfect timing and I like it so much. Yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Probably maybe about 20 manta rays on this site called Manta Point. Yeah, Manta Point, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Yeah, one spot. Yeah, even we saw I saw 20 mantas and they were like it's this kind of like one of my best dive in a year for Manta Rays 2025. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Yeah, and we saw Ninja, the fully black manta. Yes. They nicknamed it ninjak.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Ninja, yeah, yeah. We have some of them here also. Yeah, we call the same things ninja. Yeah. This is a because uh fully black manta, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Yeah, one one of the mantas, the biggest mantra we saw was probably four meters or three or four meters.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Four meters, four meters. The most we saw is uh roof mantas, they are growing up to four meters only. And if you want to see oceanic mantra, then you have to go to Rajampad because uh for me it's quite easy to see them then here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

You mentioned the currents, so it's a good idea to either do a refresher before you come here or be advanced, I suppose. But but it is possible to come as a beginner as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:42

It is. Uh I would recommend to be at once driver first to come here. Or you can do your at-on's course here also. That would be nice. As you know that we did beginners, but you know, like when we bring beginners, if you're a beginner, you come here, we only bring you to the place where not so much challenge, not so much uh big things to see. Yeah. So I highly recommend this at once, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Yeah, yeah. So I guess the Komodo National Park has something for everyone though, because there's some sites which are easy for beginners, no current, like the last dive we did today. Yeah. So we had some guests who came on this lipperboard trip just as snorkelers. Yeah. And so they got to practice and improve their snorkeling and their confidence, and then on the last day they learned uh they did an introductory scuba dive and had the best time ever. So there's something here for everyone, and I mean you can do day trips as well if that's all you have the time and budget for. But if you're if you're a more diver, then I definitely recommend a liveaboard because we had more time to see more sites. We did a night dive, which is amazing. And I love underwater photography, so I got to take photos of lots of macro life, lots of small stuff. And I found that this marine park is really good for macro stuff, so lots of nudie branks, there was a lot of little crustaceans, and also the colours of coral, like soft corals, like bright orange, bright pink, so bright colours, and sponges, just every different type of colour of sponges. So I had a great time as an advanced underwater photographer and you know very experienced diver. But yeah, this novelist and beginners had a really good time as well. And one of the most exciting or thrilling dives was shotgun. So if there's anyone out there who hasn't heard about it, can you explain what is the shotgun dive?

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Well, saltgun actually, the dive side basically is in between of two islands. Yeah, and we have a channel in between. And why we call this dive side saltgun is because in between of these two islands, the deepest of the water is about seven to eight meters. So when the water moving from one side to another side, they have to squeeze themselves tight into small passage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when the water moving up to the shallow parts, they became squeezing each other tightly and became stronger. And that's why we call this point the shotgun. And the good things of this place, most of the time you do drift dive. And you start from the shallow, you go deep, and then you go to the shotgun points, and then you go really super fast out to the blue. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. And some divers are doing hooking also to feel the power, the modern nature power of the current. Yes, yeah, exactly. You could feel it like, yeah, really cool, really amazing. I like it. Yeah, uh some of our guests they love it so much, yeah, because of uh the current itself. And then when you go drift, it just goes like to the blue and then like a roller coaster, you know, like the feeling. I love it so much, yeah. So that's why we call this dive side, shotguns, and and this is yeah, one of the most favorite dive sites for the diver who come to Kumura National Park. And also here, not only currents, but if you have nice corals and a lot of fish to see here, like sharks and travelers, and then um millions of reef fishes, antees everywhere, and a big eye of jackfish, yeah, travelers. Yeah, really, really beautiful. One of the uh recommended spots that you have to be experienced in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Yeah, I loved shotgun. That was one of my top sites. We did about more than 10 different sites on this trip, right? Like more than 12. 14 dice. 14 dice, okay. I've lost count, there were so many. But shotgun was one of my favorites, not just because we got to drift through that fast current channel, which was really exciting, but on either side of that, the coral was just amazing, and we saw pygmy seahorses. Oh, which, yeah, if anyone hasn't heard of a pygmy seahorse, they're really tiny. There's no way I would have found that if the guide didn't point it out to me or the other guide Saldi. So all the guides here have very sharp eyesight, right? You can see the things that I never would have noticed. But our guide Saldi found this tiny little adorable seahorse. So, yeah, shotgun is an absolutely great sight, and I guess that's one of the dives where it helps if you're advanced because of you just need to be confident in that strong current. There was a dive on the first day, which was a little bit more of a mutt dive where there was a bit more mud and less colourful coral, but a lot of really interesting critters. So I actually saw we saw multiple seahorses, multiple pipe fish, two different types of ribbon eel. One of them actually was swimming, and you could see the full ribbon shape. It was just I've never seen that before. It was amazing. Octopus, I'm just mind-blown by all the things that I saw here. Let's talk a bit about threats to the ocean. So when we were at a site called Golden Passage, you were talking about the water temperature being like 28-29, which is beautiful and warm for us to go diving, but you said you're a little bit worried about if the water gets too hot, then it can cause bleaching. Have you seen much bleaching around Nakamoto National Park?

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Yeah, at the moment we had 29 to 30 degrees of the water temperature. And this is not good temperature for October and for the coral reefs itself, you know. And I hope it doesn't go more than this. But it goes up to 31, so some corals of the shallow reef here definitely bleaching. This was happening in 2014 here. We had uh water temperature goes up to 30, and then at some points of the dive side here, really completely bleaching, and and it really is not nice, and and you know, like big heeled sable corals, and it's just in one month and all whites and everything's you know, really, really, really sad. And I don't know, but the only things that I can do is just hope. I hope temperature not going up to 31, 32, stay 29, 30. Or I prefer 28, 29, no more than this. Otherwise the corals will turn into bleaching and not nice, and you know, like you've been there and you saw the coral, it's a beautiful diver, and and when it's drying, it's really taking my heart away, you know. So I love it so much, and yeah, and I hope yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Yeah, I hope so too. And and I can confirm that the coral here is really really healthy. Like we just saw the most colourful coral that you can imagine. It was absolutely beautiful, so that's positive, and I think because of those currents that you you have a lot of currents in Komodo National Parks, so it's keeping things cool. But in Australia we have coral bleaching as well, so I know the feeling it's really hard to see. So you mentioned 2014. Did you have more bleaching? Like how many times have you seen it?

SPEAKER_00 21:53

I've seen it three or four times here in the park where the temperature goes over to 30 degrees, and it was really really destroying, bleaching everywhere, and and it really, really takes time like three years, four years to bring it back, you know. And the most I remember was 2014 where the corals was super everywhere, bleachings and yeah, not nice. And after that they are growing back fastly because we have currents here that bring a lot of nutrients, make the corals grow. And also temperature after 2014 the temperature goes back down again. So makes corals growing healthier and healthier. So I hope not gonna happen again, you know.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Fingers crossed. Because Flores is in the southern hemisphere, same as Australia. So we're coming into summer now. So October, November, December, it's gonna get hotter, right? So yeah, I really hope that it doesn't get too hot this year and the corals can stay beautiful. And I guess you've got a lot of dive sites to choose from. So the ones you took us to were very healthy. So it was amazing. It's the same as it's the same in Australia. We have had multiple bleaching events, but we still can choose good dive sites that are still healthy, especially if they've got currents to keep them cool and things like that. And like you mentioned, it's usually the shallow corals that bleach. So lucky we are divers, we can go down and see the it is. So uh do you have any problems with crown of thorns starfish? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

2011 and 12 government here, they were asking to all of the local divers to eliminate all of those uh crown of thorns. And to be honest, in this park we have lots of this before. So we as a local diverse here, local community divers here, we rock hand in hand to take all of them out and we bring it to the island, then we dig the ground, the sands like a meter, two meters deep, then we put all of them in.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Oh wow. And it's hard to kill.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

It is, it is, yes. Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Otherwise they just come back out.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Yes, exactly, exactly. Yeah. And um recently I did a couple dives in the park here. I saw a couple of them. And not really much. But so far at the moment, here Crown of Thorn is not a big disaster. If you hope stay like this, but we don't know what's gonna happen in five or ten years ahead. Yeah, we don't know, but I hope not. But if this happens, you know what we do? We're gonna do same things. We're gonna call up them all and we're gonna bring them back to the land, then we're gonna bury them in the grounds, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Yeah. So speaking about protections, it's obviously it's a national park, which is great. And I saw in one of the books here that there's different zones. So there's areas which is like tourism only, I guess, but there's also some traditional use areas. So can you tell us about how the protection of this area works?

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Yes. Here in the park here, we have so many locals are living inside the park. Yeah. And their lives they've been living there for a really long time.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

Yeah, it is. They've been living here for many, many, many years before the national parks exist. And their lives deepens on the fishings and or taking things from the oceans and selling it to the land to make their lives move on and on. And the government now they helps a lot to the local community here, especially in the park, that teach them how to professional handicrafts, you know, that teach them how to be a good seller when they buy some things like Komodo statue. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Oh, I didn't wear it, but I bought a Gamoto Island t-shirt local.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Yeah, helping the economy. It is, it is. So this is what the government do, they try to support in this way so they are not going to to depend on the fish and everything to sell, but they they use this ability, they use this skills, as we have more guests coming and coming to sell uh like t-shirts, like uh handicrafts, and you know. And here in the park here, we have three zones where you can see in the park here. For the divers, they are mostly going to the place or to the islands where the coral is nice and they are allowed to dive in there. And there is some place, some zone only for fishermen. So it doesn't mean that the government they really super 100% they're closed for them not to go inside the park. No, they are. They are allowed to come inside the park, but they are not allowed to be the with the fishing net, they're only allowed with the fishing line manually, and then they have a special zone where they can go. They are not allowed to go directly into drive spots fishing. And the third one is there is a place like the mangroves area where mostly divers and fishmen are not allowed to go, where the fishes are going to spawning and uh sponge. Yeah, things like that. Pretty mad.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Sounds like a really great system. How long has that been in place?

SPEAKER_00 27:01

I think this has been for 15, 16, or 17 years since I came here. The government they already started this. So probably 20 years ago. Yeah, and but it takes time, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Yeah, you've been working here for a long time, so in that time have you seen changes, like maybe some things are getting worse because of human impacts, but maybe some things are getting better because of the marine park protection or just stay the same?

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Tourism increasing here more every year, more and more. And the demands to the market of the fish more and bigger, bigger and bigger. And 10-15 years ago, here really beautiful. Now it's still beautiful too. But I have to tell you honestly, but spit less. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Went from 100 down to 95.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

I would say 75. 75, yeah. And also drivers less experience, they come here. And also fishermen, they do some dynamites here. They do some cyanide also.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Even though it's not allowed.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Even though it's not allowed, yeah. You know, national park actually is not always 24 hours out there, you know. So even they are sleeping at night in the middle of the night, fishermen comes in, you know, because they know it's the place here. It's very difficult. And tourists coming more and more here, they bring peak economic to the locals who are living inside the park. They make more money than before. It's because of this, and also with the money they made from tourism, they can send their children to have a good education on Flores Island here. Even half of them not well educated, it's because they prefer to make money faster than to send their children to school. But to be honest, now we have lots of students from the islands that come to the mainland here to study, to have a good education. And and to be honest, this is because of the tourism itself in growing and bringing a good impact. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Yeah, yeah. So I guess sometimes tourism gets a bad rep, but it brings a lot of benefits like economically, and it allows some of those fishermen, fisher people, can stop fishing and sell the uh souvenirs and t-shirts instead. And it provides people like you do with the best job ever. Yeah, I think that's an important tip that you gave is just make sure that you're experienced enough before you go near the coral that you control your buoyancy so you're not getting too close and accidentally kicking it and don't touch anything. It's the same rules in as Great Barrier Reef in Australia: leave nothing but bubbles and take nothing but photographs. I saw many of us on our dive picked up a few fishing lines and we picked up a couple of pieces of trash, and there wasn't much on the dives, it was very clean because of the marine park. But when we saw a couple of things, we picked them up. So if you're taking away anything from your tourism experience, you can take away trash, support the local villages that we went near. We also did a tour to see Komodo dragons, which was really cool. They're so big, and I think they're cute but also deadly. So that's where there was local people employed as rangers protecting the dragons, and yeah, so I think tourism is a good thing as long as we don't take away anything except trash. Speaking about trash in the ocean, do you see a lot of plastic pollution in the ocean? And is the marine park doing anything about that?

SPEAKER_00 30:36

We have some NGOs on the island who really taking care of the rubbish in air, you know? Like Trust Hero and some other Trust Hero.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

And they have a filtered water tower in the different restaurants and hotels so you can refill your own bottle so you don't have to buy plastic bottles. Yeah, plastic bottles, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

And trust zero, and also here we have one of the local NGOs here. This one is the most active here in the park. Indonesian vest platform. The manager is one of my friends. She's very, very active. Every Friday she drives the boat to some of the island here to collect and pick up rabbis. And also from the diver community. Before I was one of the uh leaders of the diver's community here, and we are really concerned to this also. And every year we used to collect the rubbish underwater here, and then also we do we are going to the park, we pick up some rubbish, we go to those places where we think okay, we have rubbish underwater lots here, and then we bring divers, you know, from the local divers here, and we collect all the rubbish here. And it's it just really helps, it's really helps. And then that's why we see some some of the dive site out here where there are no rubbish. Even some of the places out there, to be honestly, yeah, one of them. But most of the area we definitely intensively every year we clean, we clean, we clean, we clean. And also with the Tri-Zero Indonesian West platform here from the the island, they used to help a lot also.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Yeah, yeah. I think the dive community is so important with protecting the ocean because you know the people who love the reef, they don't want to see trash there. So divers like us, we're we're here to help protect it. We don't want to harm it. So if there's anyone from around the world like tourists, can they come here and help with the cleanups? Or yeah, is it just local?

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Sure. Sure, definitely, yeah. Any divers who come here in the park here. We don't have any schedules for you because there are a website. Actually don't. Mostly when we have world cleanup day or ocean cleanup day, then we we go to the park. But you know, we always recommend to the divers who dive in park here at least one or two or three. At least you have to bring it home. I mean bring it up into the boat here, try to collect, yeah. For any divers out there who comes here in the park. So I hope do some little bit to make a better, better world or better reefs, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Yeah, every little bit counts, right? Yeah, yes. Well, it looks like we're nearly back in Labon Bajos this year. Wow. I'm so sad I have to get off the boat. I haven't even packed yet, so we're gonna go do that.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

But yeah, it's hard to say yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Yeah, thanks for sharing a little bit of your knowledge with us. Thank you so much for the yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Thank you so much.