SPEAKER_04 0:42

You're listening to Word on the Reef, diving into marine science on the Great Barrier Reef and beyond with Tanya Murphy and Brett Goodbann. Good morning, everyone, and welcome to Word on the Reef. I'm your host, diver and marine conservationist Tanya Murphy. And with me, as always, is Ken's Aquarium's marine educator and fish whisperer, Brett Goodbannon.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Good morning. We've got a big show this morning, haven't we?

SPEAKER_04 1:12

Yes, I'm super excited because today we're going to take a journey to one of your favourite places, Brett, the Coral Sea.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Yeah, can't get enough of that place. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 1:21

Now, for any listeners who are unfamiliar, the Coral Sea Marine Park is the area just outside the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park. It's pretty remote, so to explore it, we're going to need a bigger boat and at least a few days. So let's get in our imaginary boat and drive 108 kilometers offshore from Cairns. As we near the outer edge of the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park, the shallow turquoise of the Coral Reef perched atop the continental shelf drops away to an inky dark blue abyss more than two kilometres deep. The swell is big out here in the open ocean, beyond the protection of the reef, and the mountains of cairns have disappeared over the horizon. Now we are in the Coral Sea Marine Park. At just under a million square kilometres, the Coral Sea Marine Park is one of the world's biggest marine protected areas. Three times larger than the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park and almost twice the size of Spain. It borders the maritime territories of New Caledonia, the Solomon Islands, and Papua New Guinea. But this vast area is far from an empty expanse of ocean. It is home to 56 coral caves and islets, 34 coral reefs, and thousands of marine species, including 341 species that are internationally recognized for their conservation significance. Many of the coral sea's reefs are located on isolated seamounts, extinct ancient volcanoes shooting up from depths of more than 2,000 meters. Like Osprey Reef, a famous destination for multi-day diving expeditions. Bathed in oceanic currents and far away from land-based runoff, the water has a clarity that seems to stretch on to infinity. We've been lucky enough to spend time diving on Osprey Reef, and it's out of this world beautiful. You've spent a bit of time diving in the Coral Sea, haven't you, Brett?

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Yeah, I've got the Osprey smile. I think anyone that's been up there has it. Yeah, I did a lot of uh shark expeditions up there. North Horn is just easily one of the best places in the world to go diving. Yes. Just love it.

SPEAKER_04 3:32

Yeah, it is definitely one of my top recommendations for anyone wanting to go diving off the coast of Queensland, although you do need to be a certified scuba diver with a little bit of experience, and you need to have enough money saved up to go on a multi-day cruise because you can't really get there and back in a day trip, but absolutely worth it. Start saving now, everyone.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Make sure you get your sea leaks as well. I'll spray I'll sort you out.

SPEAKER_04 3:55

Yeah, it is an incredible place. And the Australian government is currently undertaking a review of the Coral Sea Marine Park, and indeed most of the marine parks across Australia are currently under review. So what does that mean for the future of the Coral Sea and our other marine parks around Australia? And importantly, for all those who love fishing, will changes to the marine park zones impact where you can throw a line in? To help us unpack these questions in the studio today are two people well acquainted with the Coral Sea. First up, we have Dive Queensland Principal Terry Cummins. Terry is a prominent figure in the global diving community. Having spent 50 plus years in the dive industry, including executive positions with diver training agencies, research projects, prolific writing, photography, and countless hours spent underwater, Terry has a PhD specialising in dive tourism and sits on government and NGO advisor committees. Among his many awards, he has an Order of Australia medal for his contribution to scuba diving.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Wow, we're so lucky to have you. Thanks for coming on.

SPEAKER_04 5:07

Also joining us today, we have Pew Charitable Trust's Save Our Marine Life Coral Sea campaigner Steve Ryan. He collaborates with coastal communities, fishers, scientists, and conservation partners to advocate for strong science-based protection of the Coral Sea. Steve enjoys going fishing with his son and allegedly cooks a mean pasta. Good morning, Steve, and welcome to Wet on the Reef. Good morning, Steve. Thank you. Did you bring us some pasta?

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Yes, where's the carbonara?

SPEAKER_04 5:35

It's great to have you both here. So to start off, can you each share your experience of the Coral Sea personally and explain what's so special about it and why it's worth protecting? Terry, do you want to go first?

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Yeah, I've dived all over the world, but the Coral Sea is certainly my favourite destination as a place to go and see the pristine marine environments out there. It's a very, very special place in the eyes of many divers. Not only Australian divers and Queenslanders, but people from all over the world come and make that journey out to the reef tan you described earlier. It's just amazing and really does deserve protecting. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 6:17

And Steve, what's your experience with the Coral Sea and what do you think is special about it?

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Well, like most people I haven't had the chance to get out there yet, but I'm itching to get out there.

SPEAKER_04 6:25

Oh, you deserve it. Someone needs to give you a trip in return for all the campaigning that you've done to protect it. I love to get out there.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Yeah. Uh it's it's a special place. It's one of the few places in the world where you've got a large portion of ocean that's still in pretty good condition with amazing ocean wildlife roaming around out there. It's an amazing place.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Well, we've just got the massive humpback wild migration this year that they're expecting over 60,000 of them coming up this year. Which is absolutely incredible. From 400 in the mid-80s. And many of them move through the Coral Sea. They go to Ospreys, the the U-turn point. Yeah. They get you can hang off Ospreys like a humpback parking lot. Like it's just it's incredible. It's something we really need to look after. It's it's a no-brainer.

SPEAKER_04 7:07

And lots of minky whales there as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Yeah. And just I think again, uh, from our perspective, is that because of its remoteness, people shouldn't think it is irrelevant. It's so important that's a good point. Whole area is protected and protected in a way that is reflecting a scientific approach.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

This is something that we take very seriously at work at the aquarium. We actually do a dedicated Coral Sea show that I do where we highlight on the map on the wall the actual Coral Sea Marine Park, the areas that are protected, the whale migration, and explain to people that you know it is a long way out, but it's just got to be looked after. And a lot of people don't really know a lot about the coral sea until they listen to the shows and they go, Wow, that's incredible. What a special place. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 7:57

What are the coolest things you've ever seen in the Coral Sea? Because I'm dying to share mine.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Well, you you go first.

SPEAKER_04 8:03

Oh, where do we start? Okay, so obviously the Great Berry Reef is amazing, but I did see things in the Coral Sea that I've never seen on the Great Barry Reef. Like the flashlight fish. So this is a fish that has glowing spots under both eyes. So when you go on a night dive, it just looks like you're surrounded by eyes. It's really kind of creepy until you remember how magical it is. Which is which is like it's just like you're in outer space. It's like you're on in Avatar, the film.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

It's another world.

SPEAKER_04 8:36

Yep, and I can't stop there. Also, the Coral Sea is where I saw my only sighting I've ever had of a disco clam, the flashing the red flame file shells.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Yes. They're insane.

SPEAKER_04 8:51

Yeah, this is a clam which waves its mantle and that causes uh reflective pigments in its skin to flash. It looks like it's electric flashing.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

Yep. And I reckon literally every single scuba diver that's ever seen one was going, I wonder what will happen if I just I wonder if I just but no one uh no one's ever been game to do it. You look at it and go, I wanna I wanna.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

That's right, Ruth.

SPEAKER_04 9:20

Yeah, I mean don't touch anything, but yeah, it really looks like it's generating its own electricity. Yeah, they're super cool, but they don't generate electricity, they just reflect light with mirror-like pigments. Isn't that amazing? Yep. All right, Brett, what's your favourite things?

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Well, I I managed to tick over over two and a half thousand dives at Osprey in my career, and uh I've seen a lot of cool stuff, but I think the day I got stared down by a baby humpback was probably one of my favourite because the people that don't realise the humpies go up there and they during migration they do a big U-turn mum checks in the day spa, they have a couple of days R and R and then they head back to Antarctica, right? Kids have a bit of a play. And I'd come back from one of the shark feeds, and I was just hanging on the line and I could hear them talking, and I looked out and I saw mum come past. She slowed down and she stared straight at me and I thought, You're alright, love, you keep going. And then she swam past Junior, looked up over the top at me, and he's looked at me, and I've looked at him, and mum's just rolled on her side and pushed Junior down as if to say, Now that's a human, right? We you've learnt this lesson, we're gonna leave now. And they just swam off, and I was just like, Oh, it's so cool.

SPEAKER_04 10:23

Uh it sounds like they had a real special connection with you then.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Yeah, I did have a massive tiger come into the shark expedition once, which was pretty cool, one of the biggest ones I've ever seen. That that I don't even have hair, but it was standing on end that day. I thought, oh, here she comes. But it was it's just uh it's just a magical place, it's just incredible.

SPEAKER_04 10:41

Yeah. What's your top thing, Terry? Uh, there's no such thing as an answer to that one, Tanya, because Terry just told us that he goes to the Coral Sea for diving five times a year. Lucky ducky.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Yeah, that's I think asking a question like that's like asking someone who loves wine what's their favourite wine, because it just depends on your mood and where you are. But the beauty of the Coral Sea is anything can turn up. Yep. Anything. I mean, you can have the most beautiful tiny nudie branks right up to your big whales and sharks of all types. You know, there's whale sharks and all kinds of things out there that just drift by you as you go along. But I think uh better question is what's your favourite dive destination out there? Uh-huh. And that would be actually at North Horn. Yeah, North Horn where you've got lots of sharks, um, lots of large marine fauna. And uh also uh you can do right adjacent to that a beautiful drift dive along West Wall where you get the beautiful soft corals and things like that. Yeah, so it's kind of a place where there's everything for everyone.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Yeah, there's something very special about looking over the back of the ship at Northorn, and the sun comes up and it's a hundred meter vis. There's a hundred and something sharks schooling around below, a big drop-off, and you go, just get me in there. It's incredible. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:02

Northhorn is where they do the shark feed.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

Yeah, that's where I used to. I started out on Taca back in the day doing the Friday shark filming. I used to do all the shark filming and the feeds. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

I've still got my crude t-shirt. Did you used to work on Taca? Did you know, but they gave me a crude t-shirt?

SPEAKER_02 12:19

Yeah, I was on that t-shirt. Yeah, I was on that old bathtub for years.

SPEAKER_04 12:23

Oh, you guys might have met before and not realised then on that.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Well, we'd probably run into each other at some point.

SPEAKER_04 12:28

Yeah. Didn't you get a shark, grab the back of your tank or something at one point?

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Yeah, that was in the middle of the feed because somebody they're all, you know, they're all told not to come off the wall during the feed, so there was just me and my camera with one eye shut, sharks feeding, right? Someone came off the wall and thought they'd come and park themselves next to me in the oceanic silver tip beside he didn't like it very much, so he came up and grabbed hold of the back of the tank and I started to shake and thought, what's going on here? And I looked back and he just spat me out and swam off, so I kept filming.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

I think the shark the shark feed's really a great objective out there because it actually shows a lot of divers how important sharks are. Yep, absolutely. It also shows that people can develop a love for sharks where a lot of the media is turned more towards, you know, shark attacks and nasty things about sharks. And once you get out the back of that boat and you've got, you know, 30, 40, 50 sharks swimming around and they're not doing you any harm, it's a very special thing to explain. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Yeah, I do the shark shows at work every day, and it's just about educating people on how they behave and under understanding them because education leads to conservation, so we just got to keep doing it.

SPEAKER_04 13:44

Before we continue, here's a little background on Australia's marine parks and why the upcoming review is so important. Australia has actually been a world leader on marine parks, thanks in no small part to passionate scientists, traditional owners, tourism operators, and grassroots ocean lovers who have spent decades pushing governments to better protect our seas. Australia's first great marine reserve was the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park. Back in season 1, episodes 9 and 10, we heard the incredible story of how campaigners fought to stop oil drilling and coral mining on the Great Barrier Reef, leading to the creation of the Marine Park in 1975. But here's something that surprises a lot of people. Even after it became a marine park, and later a World Heritage Area, more than 95% of the Great Barrier Reef was still open to fishing. That's because Australia's marine parks are multi-use. They contain different management zones. Some allow activities like fishing, while a higher level of protection is found in green zones, also known as no-take zones, where extractive activities aren't allowed. In season 2, episode 17, we explored the so-called troll wars. After years of scientific research and fierce public debate, the network of no-take green zones was expanded in 2004 to cover exactly one-third of the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park. And importantly, those green zones weren't placed at random. Scientists carefully designed them to protect a representative sample of the reef's many different habitats and ecosystems. The changes were controversial at the time, particularly among parts of the fishing industry. But now, more than 20 years later, they've proven remarkably successful. Fish populations have recovered inside protected areas and spilled over into neighbouring fishing grounds, while the reef has become more resilient and better protected for its ecological, tourism and world heritage values. In many ways, the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park is an excellent example and a blueprint to follow for how to create an effective marine park. But what about Australia's other marine ecosystems? Outside the Great Barrier Reef, Australia's first Commonwealth Marine Reserves were established in 1982, protecting remote coral sea reefs including Lehoe Reef and Coringa Herald, areas that are now part of the Coral Sea Marine Park. They were followed by the Great Australian Byte Marine Park in South Australia in 1998 and the South East Australian Marine Parks Network in 2007 off the coast of Victoria and New South Wales and Tasmania. Then came the biggest step of all. In 2012, Labour Prime Minister Julia Gillard announced plans to increase the number of Australian Commonwealth Marine Reserves from 27 to 60. It would have been the world's largest network of marine reserves at the time, protecting more than 3 million square kilometres of ocean around Australia. For the first time, it would include large offshore ecosystems in every state and territory, including Western Australia and the Northern Territory.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

It was a great achievement. And the original Coral Sea proposal actually came out of Kansan Townsville, the Kansas Final North Environment Center, and North Kwanzaa Conservation Council. Basically put in for a grant to investigate the idea of a Coral Sea Marine Park. And that idea really took seed and was picked up even internationally as a globally significant opportunity for marine parks. And so by 2012 it would have gone from just an idea to a reality, which was huge. Yeah, mercy.

SPEAKER_04 17:34

But the proposal was strongly opposed by some commercial and recreational fishers. So in the lead up to the 2013 Australian federal election, the LNP opposition leader Tony Abbott pledged to stop the expansion of marine parks. Following his election, the new government suspended the management plans before they came into effect and ordered a review of the marine park network. When the revised plans finally came into effect in 2018, 40 marine parks remained in place, but several had significantly smaller no-take sanctuary zones than originally proposed. Today, about 45% of Australia's Commonwealth waters lie within marine parks. But only 26% are highly protected no-take zones. And in Australia's coastal waters, the parts of the ocean that support the greatest biodiversity and the most important for tourism, recreation, and traditional owners, only around 10% is fully protected from extractive activities. And that's important because these management plans are due for their 10-year review in 2028. While that's still a couple of years away, the planning and public consultation will begin soon. That's why scientists, conservationists, and tourism operators are calling for a science-based redesign of Australia's marine parks. They argue that our highest-valued ecosystems, the places richest in biodiversity and most important for traditional owners, tourism and recreation, remain underrepresented. Their message is simple. It's not just about protecting more ocean. It's about making sure we're protecting the right places. Steve, what's the difference between the different zones in the Coral Sea? How much of that marine park is actually highly protected? And where are those highly protected zones?

SPEAKER_01 19:30

About 24% is green zone, no take. Most of that is on the very eastern edge or on the northern side, or in the centre where there was an original Marine National Park back from 1982. Very little of the reef areas are under green zone. Most of that green zone, that 24%, is in open ocean and away from any existing commercial uses. You also have an area where you have bottom trawling in the southern area, and even out onto seamounts, you're allowed bottom trawling. Most of the coral sea is open to long lining and various commercial fishing, except not bottom trawling. And you have some areas, especially around some of the reefs, where you more have sort of these recreational-only fishing zones with some hand collection, sea cucumber, aquarium collection, things like that. So you have a variation of varied areas. And I mean our main point is that is the green zones should be much more representative of where the important areas are. So you should have a representative sample of each of those. And currently we're not there there.

SPEAKER_04 20:37

Just to reiterate what Steve said that about 24% of the coral sea is currently a green, no fishing zone, but most of that is not on the coral reefs.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yeah, most of that's just in the far eastern corner and sort of out in the middle of the ocean where nothing's happening. Oh, no, it's still valuable. You've got seamounts and important areas there. It's still valuable, but it's not the whole story.

SPEAKER_04 21:01

Yeah, so when you talk about representative areas, you mean you want to see the different ecosystems being a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Yeah, the the hard reefs, the caves, the slopes, the seamounts, the canyons, the continental shelf slope, all those different areas that have been identified need a proportion of those protected.

SPEAKER_04 21:20

Yeah, okay. Brett and I have been out diving in the Coral Sea. I only did a one-week expedition, one of the best weeks ever. But we went to Holmes Reef, Bougainville Reef, and Osprey Reef. So are they protected in the green zone or Osprey is currently protected fully.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

And Boganville is about three quarters protected, so they're two of the reefs that are actually protected. That makes me happy. And and that's partly why, because they're for tourism and diving especially.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

So we've got people from all over the world coming to those areas, and I've never seen a bad report in the whole time I've been monitoring it. Anything can turn up out there, and I think that's a really important thing. We don't know what is out there completely. And so that's why we tend to push for a science-based approach to this whole park thing, because when you get out there and you're suddenly swimming along and a school of dolphins come by there, and manta rays and all this stuff, and we know it's moving in and out of the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park as well. Yeah. So it's so important that we protect these pristine areas.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

Osprey is a little bit like a giant underwater truck stop for fish. But the worst part about diving at Osprey is it don't have gills. It is coming back up. It's magical. It is just such a and you get Steve's bombing and that whole area through there is just some of the best diving, if not the best reefs in the world to dive. It's so incredible.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Last year there was a survey out in the Coral Sea and they found 20 new seamounts. Yeah. And and they've only just started looking at the data and they found over a hundred new species as well. So they're just scratching the surface of what's out there.

SPEAKER_04 23:00

Yeah, we had Dr. Chris Yulbridge on our show back in uh the start of this year, season three, I think episode one, maybe. And he was from the CSIR Row Investigator, which is that ship that went out and found all those seamounts and new species and coral sea. Such a great episode. Yeah. Anyone who wants to check that out, go back and listen to that episode because they discovered a lot of new species, especially around the I think it's the Melish seamount out in the Coral Sea. So very interesting stuff out there. The biggest threats to the Great Barrier Reef, we've talked about them a lot on our show. The biggest one is climate change, followed by water pollution and then unsustainable types of fishing. What are the biggest threats in the Coral Sea?

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Well, I think like most of the reefs in the world, climate change is is probably the major threat. In the Coral Sea, you have the ocean heat waves are affecting the reefs, and they're also being affected by increased storm activity. So they're getting physically bashed and they're getting overcooked as well.

SPEAKER_04 24:08

Cyclone Norel went right through the Coral Sea.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Yeah, yeah, a lot of cyclones start and go through the Coral Sea. So they're under pressure. So whatever we can do to relieve the pressure to give them the resilience they need to survive these pressures is required. One of the things also is pollution and plastic pollution that gets around that's reaching all corners. And I was speaking to a scientist here in Cairns recently, and they've found even out in those remote reefs, they found cow DNA in the lagoons.

SPEAKER_04 24:35

Cow DNAs. Oh, yes. Okay, so even though it's really far offshore, the runoff from agriculture is No, this is probably from ships going through export.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Overboard. Export, yeah, yeah. So that's just you know cleaning the ships and that sort of thing as it goes into the rest. So it shows you the pollution does get out there, and even though they're very remote, they're still not completely immune to pollution and what's happening in the world.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

I think it's important to also note that its remoteness doesn't mean that it's irrelevant to the Queensland coast and indeed the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park. Yeah, it's a good point. Because actually the Coral Sea is a major breeding ground for many species, and fish don't sit still, they move around. So to protect these areas, it's not only important for the tourism industry, but also for commercial and recreational fishers because they're breeding grounds for the activities that they indeed want to undertake themselves. So it's really, really important that this review comes across as something that meets all stakeholders' objectives.

SPEAKER_04 25:34

So uh you mentioned trawling and line fishing uh still taking place in the Coral Sea. Is there a risk of extractive activities like mining or oil and gas drilling in the Coral Sea?

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Fortunately, uh, the Coral Sea is quite unique in Australia in that gas exploration, mining exploration and mining is banned throughout the entire Coral Sea.

SPEAKER_04 25:54

Thank goodness.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Yes, thank God. Yes, which was a which was a great achievement back in 2012 when it was first declared. Other activities that are happening out there are you have longline fishing from the the tuna fleet. We've got essentially I was listening ABC Radio was talking to one of the to the operator out of Cairns. They say they've got one boat out there long lining in the coral sea, and there's in the southern end you have some long lining also. But the line fishery has been pretty much inactive for the last few years, and it's mainly hand collection fisheries and the long lining who are the active fishing out there. Hand collection of hand collection of sea cucumber and aquarium fish and live coral. Yep, and you already mentioned that there's trawling in a certain area of the trawling is allowed in some areas, including some seamounts, and currently that's more speculative than actual, and we'd like to see that at least taken back to the very much reduced level it was.

SPEAKER_04 26:55

It wasn't an easy achievement to get that marine park put in place in the first place because not everyone was in agreement about it. Who were the main people who were opposed to the creation of the Coral Sea Marine Park and what was their perspective on it, Steve?

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Okay, we have to remember the history also of the Great Barrier Marine Park. We'd just gone through the whole rezoning thing just in 2004, a few years before. So there was still a lot of nervousness and a hangover from that fight. And so when the proposal back in 2008 was for a very large marine park of a green zone, basically covering most of the Coral Sea, which was a bit of a red flag to a bull in that context. And that's no longer the proposal. We're just looking for a science-based representative system, much like the model used in the Great Barry Reef. But back then that inflamed a lot of tensions, and also it wasn't helped. There was a really strong campaign of misinformation telling fishermen of Queensland that basically the conservation movement wanted to close down the entire Great Barry Reef to fishing. You have to sell your tinny, go home, hang up your rod. That's what they were telling people. So people were understandably quite worried by that, even though it wasn't true. So that stimulated a lot of opposition that was probably quite unrelated to the reality of the situation of where the Coral Sea of how far away it is. So yeah, now we're we're seeking a science-based outcome based on the same sort of principles that underlie the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park that we've had 20 years to live with now and is now generally supported by the community.

SPEAKER_03 28:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:24

33.3% of the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park is a highly protected green zone with no extractive use. For any listeners who aren't familiar, go and check out season two, episode 17, I think it was, about how the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park achieved that 33.3% green zone. It was a hard battle, but since then it's been utterly vindicated, hasn't it, guys? Because every industry appears to have benefited because there's more fish, there's more coral trout, there's more protective reef for tourism. It's been a real success inside the Great Barrier Reef, hasn't it, Terry?

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Yeah, absolutely. Some of the science that's been used in the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park shows that it benefits everybody. For example, we have situations where we can now monitor fish moving around within the park, and we know that those fish where they breed, and we also know that they transfer from pure green zones into the areas where both commercial and recreational fishing is allowed. So basically, the zoning system there has worked wonderfully, yeah, and it supports all stakeholders in a sustainable way. So a similar sort of approach to the Coral Sea would be absolutely science-based and excellent to adopt. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

It's shown the world that that can work, and that is a successful model. It works for fishing, it works fabulously for tourism, and it supports a really vibrant economy, and that's the model we want to pursue nationally.

SPEAKER_04 30:03

So, Steve, what can you tell us about this global 30% goal?

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Well, last year there was a United Nations Conference, UNOC 3, and it came up with a essentially a treaty that looks at preserving 30% of the global oceans. So we're talking about international waters beyond national jurisdictions, as they call it. And that would be such an amazing achievement for the future of humanity and this planet if we can reserve 30% of our global oceans, because up until now the global oceans have been a bit of a free-for-all. And with our expanding industrial capacity, that is just a disaster unfolding. So it's an amazing concept to preserve 30% of the oceans. And some people, when you talk about the Coral Sea and creating a large green zone out there, especially in the eastern parts of the Coral Sea, in the open ocean, they go, What's that for? And why should we do it when other countries are trashing the ocean? And we go, No, but there is this global movement towards ocean protection. And this is one of the few opportunities in Australian waters to contribute to that. So this is a global movement to really work on protecting our oceans in the long term. And Coral Seas is a key puzzle in the Pacific for doing that.

SPEAKER_04 31:11

Yeah, any listeners out there who have seen David Attenborough's ocean documentary, David in that doco talked a lot about the need for marine parks to protect the high seas, and by the high seas we mean those areas which are not close to the coast of any country and so have been a sort of a no man's land. But but by all the countries signing this high seas treaty, it means that now we are all agreeing that we are going to protect those far-off high seas, but we're also we need to protect our close-by seas at the same time, and it's all part of this goal to overall have 30% of the world's oceans protected. So that's a really exciting move forward. So the current zoning plans that are in place were enacted in 2018, but that means they're up for their 10-year review in 2028, which is two years away. But the government will be ramping up its public consultation and drafting processes soon. So, Steve, from a conservation perspective, what outcomes are you looking for from this review of marine parks, both Australia-wide and in the Coral Sea?

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Well, the federal government is committed to the 30 by 30, so 30% of the marine and land areas protected by 2030. And we'd like to see what they say are comprehensive, adequate, and representative areas. So basically, you don't just pick 30% of an area that nobody's interested in and say, oh, yeah, we've done our 30%. You've got to pick 30% of each of those important biological areas so you get a representative sample, and then you can start to protect that system that that that believes in. As far as the Coral Sea, what proportion? I think again we're looking for representative areas and we want that to be science-based, and we want to have a balance of recreational users. We don't want to exclude recreational users and all commercial use, we want that to be sustainable use. And in a system as large as the Coral Sea, there is room to do that. So you've got an area the size of about South Australia we're talking about here. So there's absolutely room to have those environmental outcomes with both commercial and recreational outcomes. And the benefits of all that is basically we're talking that 85% of Australia's population lives essentially near the coast. A huge amount of our economic activity and prosperity and lifestyle is based around healthy, vibrant oceans. And well-placed, fully protected marine sanctuaries are really a core tool in maintaining that healthy and vibrant relationship. And that is basically the natural capital that supports that economy. And that natural capital, if we want to preserve that natural capital for future generations, that's why we have to take action in forums like this review process to make sure that that natural capital for all those economic uses and for the environment is preserved for future generations. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:09

Terry, you're part of a group of Australia-wide tourism operators who have been campaigning on this issue. What outcomes are you looking for from this review of marine parks, not only in the Coral Sea, but Australia-wide?

SPEAKER_00 34:20

Well, our position is very, very clear. What we really want to see this review do is undertake a science-based investigation of the Coral Sea in particular and make sure that not only are prime areas or pristine areas protected, but that those areas that are currently protected are the right ones. Because as I mentioned earlier, what the situation is is that this whole park is a breeding ground for animals that move around the world. Whales, dolphins, turtles, all sorts of marine life. So for us as tourism operators, we want to make sure that the marine park and all of its activities, whether they be scuba diving, snorkeling, recreational fishing, or commercial fishing, is done sustainably.

SPEAKER_04 35:19

In the last part of the show, we're going to talk about the impacts of these marine park reviews on fishing. And we know that fishing is a massive recreational activity for Queenslanders. Lots of us like to go out and throw a line in and catch some fish for the family. So, how will this review of the Coral Sea Marine Park impact recreational fishers?

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Well, if there are increased protections, or I'd say when there are increased protections in the Coral Sea, unless you head out, you know, way past the ribbon reefs, out past the outer reef off the shelf to go fishing, it's not going to affect you at all. And that's probably, you know, 99% of the fishes don't get out there. But it is an aspirational destination for a lot of people. They'd love to go out fishing there. And it's not an either-or thing. You don't have either protection or fishing. It's it's a large area and there's room for both. So I would say effectively on 99% of fishes it's got zero impact.

SPEAKER_04 36:16

Yeah, it depends on the size of your boat, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Most people can't really get that far out and back on a main the main uses out there are charter fishing operators. And they're taking people out there for that experience and some fishing and spear fishing and diving mixed charters. Yeah. So basically, we're looking at a solution that has minimal impact on that sector.

SPEAKER_04 36:36

Minimal impact. Oh well, I'm sure there's lots of rackfishers who'll be relieved to hear that. And also, as Terry mentioned earlier, it could actually benefit uh recreational fishing because of that what they call it, the spillover effect. When you go fishing next to a protected marine park, there's going to be more fish spilling out, aren't there?

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a really important thing to emphasize that certainly from the dive industry and tourism's perspective, we're not looking at, you know, impacting the other stakeholders at all. What we're really just pushing for is that the review actually takes a scientific approach to the allocation of the reef and also that they take a close look at where things are at the moment and if they are in the most appropriate places. Because there might be a little bit of moving around, which might be very, very good for the overall strategy of protecting this pristine environment.

SPEAKER_04 37:31

Yeah, I think some confusion might come from people thinking that the Great Barrier Reef is part of the Coral Sea, but the Great Barrier Reef zones aren't going to change at all from this review, are they?

SPEAKER_01 37:42

No, no. It's a completely separate jurisdiction and process.

SPEAKER_04 37:45

Yep. So the Great Barrier Reef, if you've got a favourite fishing zone on the Great Barrier Reef, that is not going to be impacted at all by this Coral Sea review. But Steve, how will this review of the Coral Sea Marine Park impact commercial fisheries? And are you getting any pushback from the fishing industry or any other politicians and members of the public?

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Certainly the commercial industry is always concerned. They've got a commercial interest, of course, so they're concerned about how this will play out. We would say that when we're putting in these environmental protections to cover these representative areas, any impacts to the commercial industry should be accompanied with any structural adjustment packages to compensate for that. And for things like the trawling, bottom trawling, most of that seems to be quite speculative and not used. And it was increased 15-fold from the original in extent. So we'd say, you know, is there a justification for that and having a close looking at the role of bottom trawling in the Coral Sea?

SPEAKER_04 38:42

Steve, you've also been travelling all over Queensland talking to stakeholders, recreational fishers, politicians, and members of the public. So what has been the general feedback you've been getting from all your discussions with Queenslanders so far about this campaign?

SPEAKER_01 38:55

I think there's general support for a science-based result in the Coral Sea. People want to see why. Why do they need to protect this area? They don't see it as being particularly under threat at the moment. They don't see why. So it's we need to explain why we need these comprehensive, adequate and representative areas put aside for the future. And I mean that's what we're out there doing is talking about that. Well, of course, there's always an inherent opposition to green zones and a bit of political opportunism that comes with that. And we'd like people to sort of be aware of that as well. But that's why we're going to be out at events talking to people. So if you've got questions, come and talk to us.

SPEAKER_04 39:35

If there are any listeners out there who want more information on this campaign or to find out how they can support it, what can people do to help, or where can they head?

SPEAKER_01 39:44

So go to saveourmarinelife.org.au and that should give you some a good background on what's happening nationally, and you can look up in Coral Sea as part of that.

SPEAKER_04 39:55

What would you like the audience to know if if you leave them with one last closing message, Steve?

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Well I'd say from the Cans Inlet to the Great Bay Reef to the global oceans, the Pacific Ocean, they're all facing similar risks. They're facing overfishing, pollution, and now you've got climate change coming over the top, exacerbating all those. This marine park review that's happening at the moment for the Coral Sea and nationally, it's really a once-in-a-generation opportunity to really lock in the protections for generations to come, and it's to protect that natural capital that's supporting all the economic activities based around the ocean and surrounding the ocean in Australia. It's a huge part of the economic picture and the environmental picture, and and this is a great opportunity that we need to get behind.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 40:40

Terry?

SPEAKER_00 40:41

Yeah, I think Steve said it all. It's a historical opportunity that just can't be missed, and it's one which we must get right. Yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 40:49

Excellent note to finish it on because that's all we have time for today. Dive Queensland Principal Terry Cummins and Pew Charitable Trust Save Our Marine Life Coral Sea Campaigner, Steve Ryan. Thanks for all your amazing work and thanks for joining us on Women on the Reef today.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 41:04

And thanks to you, all our listeners. We'll be back next week with more Marine Science Adventures. Best fishes.