Reef Rats Routed and other Marine News

SPEAKER_00 0:42

It's it's Word on the Reef when marine science meets a fair side. Join Tanya Murphy and Britt Woodband and spun into the wonders of the Great Barry Reef and explore the mysteries beneath the waves. Good morning everyone and welcome to Word on the Reef. I'm your host, diver and marine conservationist, Tanya Murphy. And with me, as always, is Cairns Aquarium's marine educator and fish whisperer, Brett Goodband.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

I am Hay. Good morning. Hey, the week's gone already. Crikey.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Now before we dive into today's interview, a quick wrap of marine news. In positive news, rangers have won the war against a plague of black rats at Northwest Island off the coast of Gladstone in the southern Great Barrier Reef. These invasive pests were detected on the island in 2022, where they were preying on seabird chicks, turtle hatchlings, and native vegetation. I've also heard unconferred rumours that they were wearing Hawaiian shirts and drinking cocktails on the beach. So anyway, I understand the Pied Pie Bar was not available, and all attempts to lure the rats into the sea with a recorder were unsuccessful. So instead, a land and aerial campaign was waged using an intensive programme of traps and baits, successfully eliminating the rats and reclaiming the island for the native wildlife. Yes. To prevent further invasions, visitors are being asked to thoroughly check their boats, camping equipment, and any belongings when travelled to the island. I mean, I know when I go camping, I usually try not to pack rats.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Yeah, that's you know, on the list of a hundred things to do that that'd be in there somewhere with no rats check.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Meanwhile, according to the Marine Park Authority's latest reef health update released yesterday, sea surface temperatures have dropped slightly over the past week, but they still remain above the long-term average. Coral bleaching has been cited on a small number of reefs in the northern region, with more surveys planned in the coming weeks. At the same time, we've been drenched by heavy rainfall, with several locations receiving more than 200mm in a single day over the past week. The Dangery River was flooded, of course, and the ferry damaged, leaving residents stranded once again, and another tropical low is on the way. Overall rainfall for March so far is well above average across many reef regions. Excessive flooding can smother seagrass and corals, but we'll need to wait for detailed surveys before we know the full extent

Why Talk about Eco Grief?

SPEAKER_00 3:10

of the impact. Now, on to today's topic. Today we're talking about how our mental health connects with the ocean, the reef, and environmental challenges like climate change. Now, on this show we focus a lot on positivity. We talk about solutions and hear from inspiring reef heroes who are doing amazing things to protect the reef, and that gives us a lot of hope. Of course, the Great Berry Reef is enormous and different parts of it are affected differently by environmental impacts like climate change. So there's still so much joy and well-being to be gained by snorkeling and diving on the reef and talking about the reef. And the reason we make this show, and probably why so many people enjoy listening, is because we love the reef. But when you love something or someone, you open yourself up to the possibility of loss. Sometimes learning about the losses the reef might be experiencing from climate change, pollution, and other pressures can hurt. It can make us feel sad, worried, or even mad. Brett, what are some of the feelings that come up for you when you think about things like coral bleaching and reef degradation?

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Oh, I I feel it in my soul, because it's been part of my life. You know, just to see her go through that. Because we've we've seen her at her best, and and then you see all this happening. And this is going to be a very important chat because this is something I get asked about at work a lot. These customers coming up and going, You've spent so long on the reef, it's been part of your home. How does this make you feel? So this is this is a very, very cool chat today. We need this one.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Yes. Now anyone who's up to date with mental health research will know that avoiding or pushing away feelings we perceive as negative can actually be unhealthy. But channeling feelings into creative or meaningful outlets can be incredibly powerful. So how do we deal with environmental loss in a way that's healthy and constructive rather than avoidant? And how do we aggrieve something that is still unfolding? How can creativity help us process environmental change? And how can parents talk to their kids about climate impacts and reef devastation without overwhelming them? To

Introducing Dr Chloe Watfern

SPEAKER_00 5:18

unpack these questions, we're joined today by Dr. Chloe Watfern, an artist and postdoctoral psychology researcher with the University of New South Wales and the Black Dog Institute. She's also a mum. She lives on Magnetic Island on the Great Barry Reef, and she runs creative workshops exploring the connections between climate change and mental health. Good morning, Dr. Watfern, and welcome to Word on the Reef.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Good morning. Thank you so much for having me today.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

Good morning. Thank you for joining us. It's going to be a really important chat, this one.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

It's great to have you on the show. To start off, can you please tell us a bit about yourself and your background and why you're passionate about the marine world, art and psychology?

SPEAKER_02 5:57

I absolutely can. That's a big question, and it's the question of how far to go back. But I will say I I'm so lucky to live now on Young Banan Magnetic Island, and it's a place I've been connected to my whole life. My dad spent his teenage years here, and my grandparents lived here for 50 years. So I've been very connected to this island and the reef around it since I was born. And so that's definitely played a big role in my, I guess, my environmental identity, like how I feel so much belonging and joy. And you know, I feel my souls are kind of happy and at rest, and I love the way you you know describe your own feelings. I feel that being here and in the water. I did grow up down in Sydney, so some much colder waters, but still beautiful marine life.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

And so, yeah, I think I guess yeah, salt water has always been my home. It's something that I've wanted to bring my kids up in as well. So I have that sense of reverence and that sense of joy and connection to this wonderful world that we live in. And so that's definitely been, you know, just personally part of my life forever. But as you said, I'm I'm an academic, I'm a researcher, and I'm an also have a art practice and these things I've been trying to kind of wrangle into some sense of responding to that love I feel for the world, but also that sense of of deep loss when I hear what's happening and some of the things that human behaviour has driven yeah, driven for the world and the reef. So um that's kind of yeah, what what brings me to the topic today and different strands of my research and practice that try to address how we're feeling with with what's going on, particularly for the reef given our topic today.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Absolutely.

Is it Normal to Feel this Way?

SPEAKER_00 7:41

So we've heard from a few of our listeners that are feeling different feelings, like overwhelmed, sad, and worried about climate change and its impacts on our reef, our oceans and our planet in general. Is it normal to feel this way?

SPEAKER_02 7:53

It's absolutely normal. It's actually quite common and some would say it's a very rational response to what is a real threat that we're seeing. We're seeing these precious places come under increasing pressures from issues like climate change and warming sea temperatures, about a whole range of things. So when we feel connected and attached to a place, it's very normal to feel some grief at some observed losses, for example, snorkeling in a place that where you notice that there's some broken coral or it's bleached, which has happened to me a lot living now on Magnetic Island. But also when you're thinking about oh, what could happen to these places, knowing that given the state of the world and you know the political context and all these other things and all the information we get we're consuming information about the world, thinking, oh, what's gonna happen in five years? What's gonna happen when my kids grow up? Is it still gonna be a place that we can engage with? And yeah, feeling grief about that is totally normal and a sign of our connection.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

Yeah, definitely something that crosses my mind with my boys.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

It's a healthy sign to love something and feel sad to see destruction and damage happening.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

Well that's that's the line that we use at work. You know, one of the things that we probably should do at work is allowing our customers to connect with nature and the animals because when you care about something and you love something, you care about it more and it becomes a more personal and and deeper

Solastalgia: Missing the Place You're In

SPEAKER_03 9:19

thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Yeah, one thing I I didn't even write down in my notes, but it's just popped into my head is this word solostalgia, which is a new word that I learned recently. Write it down, everyone. Have you heard this word, Dr. Wertfern? And can you explain to listeners what it is?

SPEAKER_03 9:34

Explain it to me.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Absolutely. So that amazing word was coined by Dr. Glenn Albrecht, who is based down in New South Wales, but lived for many years in the Hunter Valley region of New South Wales, which has a very significant coal industry. And he lived through a period there where mining was radically changing the landscape. And as a local community member there, he was having lots of conversations with people around him, farmers, miners, just people living in the hunter, and ex seeing this very acute and kind of unique sense of sadness as their the country that they belonged to, were connected to was being very radically changed. And he combined the terms solace and nostalgia to create this word solostalgia. And he describes it as a homesickness that you feel while you're still at home. And it's a term that's really taken on a life of its own. You know, I think Missy Higgins has a song called Solostalgia, yeah, which if people consider very lovely and you know, it's being used by all kinds of people to make sense of what they're feeling as the world changes around us.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Yeah, I really relate to that because we still have so much beauty to go and see at the reef, but there's a bittersweet side to it nowadays where you think, all right, I have to feast my eyes on this as much as I possibly can, because there'll be something there in ten years, but you don't know if it's going to be the same, I guess, or if it'll be the same for the next generation of little people that we might want to bring there with us.

SPEAKER_03 11:16

That's one of the one of the main reasons why I can't bring myself to go out there as often as I would like. I want to remember it. I want to remember it the way that she was when I finished up, you know. But yeah, people still need to go out and enjoy her, but all of the older dive crews that have been in the industry for so long and you talk to them and they all have that same feeling of, you know, how could we let this happen?

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yeah, it's so important, especially for many listeners who haven't spent twenty years diving on the reef like R Rhett and I have, that when you go out there you're still going to have an amazing time and see amazing things. But if you have been diving there for a long time, I there's my favourite sites, and some of them I haven't been to since before the last decade of bleaching.

SPEAKER_03 11:59

And uh there's almost a sort of a fear to go back there because Yeah, I know I know that uh yeah, there's a couple of my favourites at Norman Reef Tropos is definitely one of my favourites. And there used to be a time when you could sit on the sand and the garden eels were everywhere, like this big field of garden eels and a big drop-off, and apparently that's all changed now, so I want to remember the way she was.

Eco-Grief and Clinical Depression

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Dr. Watfern, how is ecological grief different from general anxiety or depression? These these are mental health issues which have always existed in the human race, ever since humans had brains, uh or anim animals and humans had brains, I guess. Anxiety and depression could exist, but how is this ecological grief different?

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Well, I mean, one way it's different is it's very specifically tied to environmental loss and some of those experiences you've been describing so beautifully, um, of you know, specific places and the memories and attachments you have to those specific places, or perhaps it's a even a particular, you know, it's a particular tree or a particular animal that you're really attached to. So that's you know, that's a difference from more general anxiety and depression. But another one that we've already touched upon it is distinguishing between, I guess, a clinically significant mental health issue like depression, and an inexperience of grief, whether it's ecological grief or otherwise, which is a really um normal way of processing loss, including anticipated loss in this case, which we've already spoken a bit about in terms of the fear of future degradation. So that's kind of another unique thing here. But people can feel that kind of anticipatory grief about a range of different issues. And it's really important to just reiterate that that is a really valid and normal way of processing um what is going on in the world and can also really motivate people. A key thing with clinically significant anxiety or depression is I guess that sense of being really debilitated and it interfering with the way we, you know, whether we can get up in the morning, our sleep, uh relationships with family and friends. And certainly there are ways that ecological grief can interact with and feed into some of those kind of clinical symptoms or experiences, but often it is a separate part of how we make sense of the world and often can feed into the way we show up professionally or in our communities to make change and work on solutions.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Yeah,

Does Everyone Feel This Way?

SPEAKER_00 14:29

you said that this ecological grief and anxiety is quite common. How common has anyone done any sort of studies across the population of how many people in Australian society might be experiencing ecological related grief and anxiety?

SPEAKER_02 14:42

I mean, I can talk a bit more to so there's there's a whole when you get super nerdy in the kind of climate change and mental health literature, there's also distinctions between kind of how people are understanding climate grief and climate distress compared to ecological grief, and that's a whole other kind of worms in terms of where those two intersect.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Um it's very broad what we're talking about then today. We're talking about the ocean, the reef, the environment, the planet, and the climate change on our show that should go for four days.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

I'll go with the broader definition, which I can bring you some stats around in terms of feelings of concern around what's happening to the climate, which affects very much the reef. And we know that more than three-quarters of young people in Australia, for example, are deeply concerned about climate change and what's how it's affecting our planet. And we know that there is, you know, coming back to this question of how this relates to some of the more established kind of signs of anxiety or oppression, there is some relationship between these feelings of concern and some of those symptoms and signs of clinically significant distress. So that's yeah, a significant portion of people in Australia are feeling concerned. And as I said, yeah, the nuances between how that shows up in our life

The Generation Divide

SPEAKER_02 16:05

is still kind of being unpacked.

SPEAKER_03 16:07

Yeah. Well this I've I've noticed a pattern over the past couple of years at work from our older generation that have grown up in the 50s and 60s, and anyone who spoke about climate change were, you know, called a tree hugger and it wasn't taken as seriously. But now they're sort of starting to understand when they come to work and they're understanding that these things are actually happening. And the biggest question I get is like, I wish that we'd taken it seriously back then. You know, how do we how do we how do we handle this now? And I say, well, just learn as much as you can, listen to the shows, do your little bit at home. But that's a pattern that I've been seeing for the past couple of years that's slightly different.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Yeah, Brett gets to talk to people from all across Australia and the world at the Cannes Aquarium. So it's a good cross-section of how people are feeling about this stuff.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

Um and I think what you're saying around that sense of why didn't we act when we we've known about these issues for a long time and why didn't we act? I think that feeds into, you know, why I I mentioned young people, you know, three-quarters of young people feeling deeply concerned. And I think there's a unique sense of, I guess, moral injustice that young people feel. A lot of my research has involved engaging with young people and feeling that older generations have betrayed them because we've had this knowledge for a long time about what we're doing and we've continued to accelerate the damage.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

Yeah, and I've definitely seen I've definitely heard and seen that from kids as well and and young adults.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Yeah. Wow, so the some of the older people are feeling guilt and some of the younger people are feeling betrayal and I mean for me as well, I I also feel betrayal in in a way mad at the delayed action since we've known about climate change for so long. But I don't feel mad at my elders.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

No.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Because there's been a lot of misinformation basically fed down the line from those who profit from fossil fuel proliferation. And uh that's who I'm mad at. I'm not mad at those people who didn't maybe didn't get the best information about the issue over the past few decades. Um but yeah, those feelings between that that generation gap is probably just fueling more angst, and then that could cause if you've got disagreement within your own family, between the members of the family about these issues, then I can only imagine how that would also lead to uh mental health pressures as well.

Impacts on Young People and Children

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Something that came up, which I'm really interested to talk more about, is the impact of climate impacts and environmental impacts on young people. There's been a lot of discussion about it. People asking whether environmental issues are causing anxiety and depression among young people, but then there's a lot of people who say it's because of smartphones or social media. I mean, there's a lot of pressures on young people now.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

It's all just kind of the father of three boys, yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Yes, and and then of course you've got the climate deniers who will say that it is people like you and me, Brett, talking about environmental issues on the radio who are causing young people to get depressed. So we should just shut up.

SPEAKER_03 19:31

Yeah, like that's gonna happen stuff. Yeah, no one likes the truth with eight tanya.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

We we should maybe people should stop talking about environmental realities altogether because it's making people sad. So uh Dr. Watfern, you're a parent. How do you think about climate change in relation to your children?

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, firstly, I feel like becoming a parent has been um a huge driver of a lot of big feelings for me around climate change. So I'll just acknowledge that to begin with, that as parents we might be going through our own emotional processing of the implications of the lifetimes of our kids going way into, you know, all kinds of projected realities from climate change. And so that has been yeah, something big for me to work through and then also to understand how to support my kids to become good citizens but also live a good life in this world that's quite uncertain. My kids are still pretty young, so they're just turned nine and just turn six. And I think the way that we talk to kids is gonna change a lot depending on where they're at developmentally. And certainly with younger kids and with all people really, I think that it starts with love and connection to place, you know, what we've already talked about, really just enjoying and embracing the beauty and joy of the living world that is still so resilient and so vibrant. And meeting kids where they're at in their understanding of things that are happening that aren't so good and empowering them to learn and be curious.

SPEAKER_03 21:06

I do school groups at at work from preppies to year twelves in literally one day with two hours each and it's almost like we don't give them enough credit. You know what I mean? Like smart little things. They're unbelievable. They're little sponges. I mean the little ones from preppies to year fives, they're they haven't had that influx of social media and that brain, you know, rot of just flicking through stuff. So they're little sponges. But it's hard sometimes when my boys, my youngest one, comes up to me and goes, Oh Dad, you dived the reef for a long time. Yeah, buddy, goes, Oh, I'm really sad because I keep hearing it's dead. You know, and it's like, well, let's have a little chat. You know, but they're they're into recycling, they're into you know, this whole next generation is starting to shift, I think, in that sense of what they're learning at school. The schools are teaching them good stuff at the moment as well.

unknown 21:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

Yeah, I'm just responding as well to that comment around should we not be talking about this? Should we be essentially silencing the climate science and the reef science and avoiding the topic altogether because it's making people depressed? I've worked with a big coalition of experts from across Australia to respond to that in an open letter that was that's published on a website by the organisation EcoMind, if any listeners are interested, or maybe there's some show notes. But there's 'cause there has been some discourse in the media around the fact that kids are anxious about climate change and so it shouldn't be part of the curriculum at younger ages, for example.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

a very convenient way to sense sense. I wonder who came up with that line.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

So without wanting to stoke any culture wars.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

I just would think that exactly what you're saying in terms of having these meaning kids weather out and having really open conversations around what does that feel like? What can we do? Where can we find out more? And you know, having a bit of a structure for that within the school system would be amazing because at the moment there's not kind of a a unified way of perhaps integrating some of those more student led or you know emotion attuned ways of investigating climate change and environmental issues. It comes down to the teachers and there are so many amazing teachers but there could be a bit more of a a top down kind of this is how you could do it. Um but certainly I think we need yeah more not less conversations around this topic to think I mean to enable us to process it.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Yeah absolutely there's always a part of growing up where reality comes in and a lot of kids might lose a pet or other things that are hard for them to go through loss as they're growing up. And I mean it's it's often those similar people who are so active in the comment section who are also saying that young people these days are not resilient. You know, they're all growing up coddled and overprotected. So there's a lot of hard truths that kids need to learn as they grow up when they get to the appropriate ages.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Yeah absolutely I mean the other thing is that kids are learning about these issues in a whole range of ways including you know this intersection with the world of smartphones and the internet where there's all kinds of information coming at young people that I didn't have access to when I was the same age. So it's a different world and a different way of engaging with information about it. And I think that has a big part to play in how that generation I'm talking about a different generation to me, I'm a bit older is responding to what's happening.

What Children Can Teach Us

SPEAKER_00 24:34

And so I think you know like Brett said children in many ways are the best people because they haven't been exposed to the misinformation on social media yet.

SPEAKER_03 24:44

So and this is that all right so this is the next wave right there's a question I always ask the students doesn't matter whether year preppies or year twelves right at the end of my tour after spending two hours with them I said okay who can list all the things that they can do in their lives and teach their friends about protecting everything you've seen and the whole amphitheatre the hand had the hands go up and the some of the things that they're coming out with I'm like that's really awesome dude. Yeah that's so cool.

unknown 25:11

Dr.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Watfern, do you think children can teach us something about resilience or keeping positive in dark times?

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Well I certainly learn a lot from my time with children my own and when I'm singing out or professionally working with kids and I love what you're doing at the aquarium. I have to come up there with my children first. Yes please come and visit but I think the core thing for me are the power of play and creativity and interacting with the natural world as though and it is I'm convinced it is you know a sentient kind of animated place where there are all these other people you know that are might not be human that you can kind of um come to know and that's something that I love particularly in younger children. It's when they're coming into you know new ways of language and understanding what life means. The way that they engage with nature is just so wonderful and it gives you as an adult a new perspective on on that world which is being so curious about everything. Wanting to understand processes and then you're like actually I have no idea I really don't re I you know I understand photosynthesis at like a kind of very basic science level but when you ask five whys and I go, I don't know the answer to that's been many a times when a child at work's come up to me and gone, what's this mean?

SPEAKER_03 26:32

And I go, Oh uh you got me champ. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Eight years of uh talking about the animals at the aquarium I've never had that question.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

Why doesn't a swim swim only to the left?

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Uh I don't know mate I'm sorry just knowing that just thinking I don't know because I think you know in this world of hyperinformation we tend to think that's the answer to everything's in our fingertips but also sometimes once you go a few questions deeper there's also is it I don't know down there and that's kind of empowering.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Yeah well there's so much that we don't know and yeah I think we should continue fostering that even when we're adults I know Brett you basically treat all the animals at the aquarium and in the ocean like they're your friends and give them names and everything, don't you?

SPEAKER_03 27:15

Oh yeah they're my mates. And and that's what I do with when the customers come in is I want you know I tell them the species but I also tell them their name you know people want to make that connection like they won't touch a sea star till you call it Trevor. Do you know what I mean? They're like no there's no way I'm touching that I'm terrified but Trevor wants you to touch him and their fingers in there straight away. It's like just fix this switch. It's like you've got to make that connection that they're not just these objects in the ocean. They're all family and they all have names and they're all very special and then people change the way that they think about them.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

It's very simple to do

Processing Eco-Grief through Creativity

SPEAKER_00 28:02

all right so the other part of your work Dr. Watfern is using creativity and you're an artist to do something productive with all of these feelings. So I was just wondering how art can help you and other people process emotions associated with climate change and environmental loss.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Yeah well certainly I can start with myself so my art practice is something I've kept up alongside more of an academic profession for decades now and it's been a way I guess a mode of self-care a special time that I can take to to play you know coming back to the to the kids as well. I often make art with my kids around the kitchen table and it's a special time for us to you know be together and be with the materials and not have to be doing all the things that a family has to do in their everyday life. So in that sense regardless of climate emotions art is just kind of this special special time in my life where I I can yeah look after myself.

SPEAKER_03 29:09

That that is really that's so special isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Yeah I wish I was more talented at art so that I could get the benefits as well that maybe I'm sure a stick insect maybe we'll get some tips from you.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

On that note I mean there's this conception you know art is for artists with a capital A I didn't terrain as an artist I've certainly studied kind of in ways that are adjacent to art and did my PhD actually at an art school despite having a bit of a psychology bent.

SPEAKER_03 29:37

I did see a little drawing that you drew the link that you sent me.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Oh there's there's a lot of art on Dr.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

Watson's website at the top of the website it's like looks like a needy prank and something else.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Oh so my practice is actually mainly around using collage.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

So I have a huge collection in fact too huge a collection of magazines and old books and things that people give me from the streets when they're clearing out their covers that seems to grow a bit too much for the size of my art room. Um so my practice is always in collage so cutting and gluing from sound images.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

I have never done that maybe in school but maybe I need to give it a go because then then you don't need to worry uh I'm very judgmental of my own drawing abilities but with a collage is there's less less worry about having to draw anything I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

Exactly and so that's what I find as well when I'm inviting others to collage so I've been doing a lot of work and you know as people are exploring some of these really kind of complex topics like how does it feel about the reef or how we feel about climate change. Collage has been quite a an awesome vehicle for people to yeah to have um images and metaphors to help them talk about those feelings without feeling like they need to be able to draw it. Because that can be a challenge with a blank page to draw those things. And yeah I guess coming back to your initial question I find that the art does whatever art club it is whether it's collage or drawing or sometimes I've also played with storytelling and writing is just different ways of accessing how we feel when words can be yeah challenging and hard to kind of to place. And also bringing back to the concrete because I think our feelings can be very abstract but art making and storytelling can bring us back to you know some of those things that you shared of you know those eels in that one place on the reef that you you remember so clearly.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

You need to find a picture of that you've well, Brett was an underwater photographer so he can find a picture that he took of the garden eels, stick stick that somewhere and then you can find some other images that depicts you know how you feel about them.

SPEAKER_03 31:50

Yeah I and you know I guess that um my way of dealing with it as well and I'm not going to call it a job because I love what I do but then when I can stand there and talk about the reef and the animals for half an hour to hundreds of people that's my that's my art. That's what I do. That gives me my That's your therapy. Yeah that's it is it's my therapy. I love it from when I start to I finish that's I'm in the zone and I'm talking about the things I love and I'm sharing it with people and I feel happier.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Yeah having a a very attentive audience to talk about the things that you love is is a very special gift. It's it's so amazing.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

Then

The Importance of Community & Sharing

SPEAKER_03 32:28

that makes my day that fulfills my cup.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

I think there's a lot of people out there just based on some emails we've gotten from listeners who don't feel like they have a very good supportive audience to talk to these things about. And that's why getting involved in a local community environmental group even if it's just like a tree planting group or or like minded people community garden or something. Find people who also love the outdoors and the environment and I've found that to be one of the best things for my mental health but sorry we digress Dr Watfern.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

We do this welcome to Word on the roof no that's great and I mean just jumping in on that digression I think it's really important and I don't know if I said it clearly enough that I was talking about how lots and lots of people are concerned but I often hear people feeling alone if they're concerned despite the fact that many people share that feeling because we don't it's kind of taboo. Like we don't actually talk about it often you know at school pickup when we're having coffee with our friends on the weekend, we don't really bring up some of these darker feelings that we might be hosting about the end of the world or whatever it is that we're you know we're feeling in respect you know how angry we are that you know the latest environmental act doesn't do enough to protect the environment. Whatever. We don't tend to bring that up. So one avenue as well I'd urge listeners to check out who are feeling alone is the climate cafe which is something that a bunch of people do now all over the world that really leading that in Australia is psychology for a safe climate who I've worked with over many years and I'm a climate cafe facilitator as well. So that's a place where you can come and speak in a very uh very open but facilitated setting about how you're feeling in response to climate or reef or any other ecological issue. I've run quite a few of them with reef communities as well. Like it's quite just a few so it's an online webinar so people can attend um they're not a webinar they're more like regular online ones that you could check out on the website of that organisation Psychology for a safe climate and and some places do have local facilitators so in person there's something like water or backcan so a coffee meetup like Coffee for Climate Cafe.

SPEAKER_03 35:07

Everyone gets together for an hour, has a coffee, has a bit of a chin wag and in a safe space I reckon that'd be that'd be busy.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

When are you hosting it Bradise I need to hide I need to find a good cafe.

SPEAKER_03 35:19

Maybe muddies would be good.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

So for any listeners based in Cairns I can inform you that the Australian Marine Conservation Society is holding a writing through Eco Grief workshop on Tuesday evening the 24th of March at 27 Greenslope Street but I'll put all the information on our online show notes. And we've got a lovely facilitator who's also an artist and poet who's going to facilitate that workshop which will be all about using creativity through the written word to work through feelings to do with environmental and and climate loss and yeah I'll put more details of that online. So there are things popping up all over the place but um for those people who can't make it to that one then look up Psychologist for a safe climate which Dr Watfern just mentioned also has different events throughout the world and online as well. And I I really resonated with what you said Dr. Watfern about how people think that they're alone and it's not safe to talk to anyone about this issue probably because the media has polarised it so much that online you might be seeing the comments section is just full of hateful comments of people fighting with each other over these things. And so it gives people the impression like oh that's not a safe topic to bring up because it might cause an argument or something. But as you mentioned Dr Watfurn surveys have repeatedly shown not only in Australia but across the world that most people are worried about this. Most people are worried about the same things. So it is actually possible that we could be sitting right next to someone who cares about it and wants to talk about it just as much as you do but neither of you is going to make the first move to start talking about it unless you're brave enough to do so.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

That seems to be the opinion but that's not what I'm seeing at work. There's way more people that are concerned about it and that's the issue is they say to me, oh can we talk about it? We want to talk about it with you because we don't know who else to talk to. You're there a safe place. Right and then they're like well then another person will walk up and going we've been worried about this and then we've been worried about that and by the end of the day you've had a hundred people go, we're really concerned about it then thank you for giving us the real story and I think there are people out there. There's more people out there that are concerned about it but don't know which avenue to go down. That's the problem.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Yeah so I think we just need to continue to normalise talking about this normal don't pay attention to the divisive narratives on the internet. In real life you can talk about these things and may be pleasantly surprised at how well it might be received especially if you approach it in the sort of a uh gentle way that you bring it up I suppose and that's right there's every internet site's got a Kevin from the pub, doesn't it? Someone who thinks climate change isn't real yeah. Okay,

How Can Art Connect People to Each Other & Nature?

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Dr. Watfern, we did touch on your art. Let's talk a bit more about it. How can art help people to feel better and also maybe take action or spread awareness about environmental impacts on the planet and the ocean?

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Yeah well there's a few ways but the most relevant segue would be art as a tool for connection because it's a way of visibly often expressing how you're feeling a story a relationship to place whatever it might be and however you choose to enact it. I because as you might have guessed I'm a fan of art around the kitchen table or art in kind of spaces and in community settings where people gather. And so that's another thing that I'm really interested in is how bringing making and creativity into our conversations can really enrich them as well. So I've been playing around a little bit with bringing different creative practices into the climate cafe, into the way we gather and talk about our feelings. I've worked with an amazing school group the weaver so that we could weave together while having conversations around climate emotions here on Yunbana and Magnetic Island.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Oh I've read a lot of research about how keeping your hands busy while you talk can uh really help with the with the brain waves and you're looking at someone who's got the worst ADHD in history my hands don't stop so maybe I should use them to do something while I'm talking. Knitting.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

I could have weaved a basket in the last 40 minutes sitting here.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

Crocheting anything where you're um being creative at the same time as talking can be really beneficial.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Yeah so you're having finding cool unique you know like what you're suggesting with the poetry and the writing up in cares ways to gather where there's a sense of purpose and a sense of you know a shared goal and that might not just be having these difficult conversations at making something together. And I love the ardent protest as well, you know, all the you know the making of banners and costumes that can go alongside you know street protests in which you know is something that has a long history, not only in the environmental movement. And there are all the kinds of ways which we can bring our creativity into those public actions. You know I've made a lot of posters in my time and just things that you can stick in your window or on your fence or another way that you can harness your creativity to say something that you want others to begin a conversation with you about. It doesn't have to be in anger it can be there's something I love is the idea of the gift as well. They're making something to give to another person as a gesture of thanks for all that they're doing that is good for the planet. And that's something I've invited high school students to do to make gifts and send letters of thanks to people who are taking amazing action for the planet.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Oh that's such a nice idea. Artists famously have often made political commentary through their art throughout history so making you know controversial paintings or controversial poetry, controversial books that end up getting banned but then change the world. Artists are so important and pieces of art can really spark a conversation or feelings in the viewer or listener which just coming out and stating facts and statistics about climate change is is not going to have that same impact as what artwork can, which is why we're big advocates for the art as well as the STEM it all needs to come together which it does perfectly in you, Dr Watfirm because you've you've done art and you've done science and psychology and uh yeah how how important do you think it is for all of those disciplines to sort of work together?

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Yeah I mean the famous kind of I'm not sure how famous but I've heard it come up a few times of everything everywhere all at once. You know we need all the things working together to build the society and the environment that we want for the future and it's all important. But as humans I think the arts and culture have been such an important part of who we are and how we make meaning and that they do get sidelined a bit in the kind of technocratic approach to climate and and even reef management. So it's really important that we don't forget the role of how we feel and how we make sense of the world in the way we respond.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

Yeah absolutely we've talked a lot on the show about the importance of the communicators and the creatives for getting the message out there because there's a lot of focus on how can we use technology to fix the reef but if we don't spread the message through through art, poetry, communications and radio shows and podcasts, then we're not going to have enough humans hearing about the issue and caring about it and and uh working together. I really love the idea that by doing art or or holding art activities together, it creates community which is really closely linked with mental health. And it's really important that people are gathering with friends to do things that are creative and not just seeing going to the pub and drinking as the only way to gather and talk with friends I think.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

Like I Yeah that old school feeling of yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

Like I'm I'm a big fan of fun. I've had a lot of fun especially when I was a younger dive instructor. So definitely not against that but I think the standard Aussie go-to for feeling down can sometimes be drowning your sorrows or maybe the only context that people catch up with friends is in a context that involves alcohol and things like that. So I think looking more at what else can you get together with your friends and do? Like maybe some collaging or some crocheting you know scrapbooking. Scrapbooking absolutely so Dr Watfan you often as you said run workshops on this topic. What have you seen happen in those spaces? Have you seen some people get some really interesting benefits out of it?

SPEAKER_02 43:58

Yeah absolutely I mean without wanting to be a broken record one of the most powerful things I see is this sense of connection and maybe a different kind of connection than we might have having a yarn at the pub where we're yeah doing something a bit different and sharing ourselves in a different way. And often in when I facilitate this kind of work there's the element of making but there's also the element of talking and they come together. So often I'll invite people to share something of themselves through an object. Sometimes I'll invite people to bring something a significant object that helps them tell a story whether it's climate change or the reef other times they'll have things in the space ready that people can respond to. Um but I think that when we ground our experiences and our stories in concrete things like a piece of coral. So I've done some workshops in collaboration with some wonderful researchers and artists using corals. So pieces of coral fragments that have been found and gathered respectfully and returned to the beach here, not in National Park on City Island. And inviting people to really kind of notice that object, respond to that object and then draw and write in response to it. Well that's that becomes a way to bring up memories as well. So a lot of people have these deep stories of being on the reef or finding pieces themselves in their home places that then spark connection between the group.

SPEAKER_03 45:28

Well call is art isn't it as well on its own.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Yeah well beautiful humans humans are not the only artists. Nature's out there creating the most beautiful things you know those activities sound so simple and yet I can see how it can really spark conversations and yeah that word that keeps coming back up is connection. Brett and and I highlight it in many of our episodes you know we've interviewed fifty plus people and the word connection always comes up. It's all about people's connection to their environment and to the reef and it's something really powerful. So

A Creative Exercise to Try At Home

SPEAKER_00 46:03

can you walk us through a simple creative exercise that listeners could try at home right after they finish listening to this episode, they can go and do something with whatever they've got around them.

SPEAKER_02 46:12

Yeah absolutely well let's start where I often start with an object. So without overthinking it walk around your garden or even inside your house and find something that helps tell a story of your care and connection with and for the reef. Um even if you don't live in Cairn people have imagined connections and stories if you've never been to the reef there's something that might help tell that story and it could be as simple as I'm looking around me now. You know, like a pair of sunglasses because every time you've tried to go snorkeling it's been a glaring hot day and that's been your you know it can be something mundane and sort of like that and then just spend some time with that object. You might like to draw it, you might like to write about it.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

But if you ground yourself in attention to that thing, you'll start to notice all kinds of possibilities for creating I I had never thought of these ideas before. This is it's like the simplest activity very profound I think you know because for me I am actually decently creative but it's always with an end purpose in mind like okay we need to make a poster to tell people that we've got an event coming up you know but when someone says to me write a poem about how you feel I'm like I'm sorry I don't follow I don't get the inst I don't get the what am I supposed to do?

SPEAKER_03 47:32

Yeah I I I ran out of patience writing my last name when I walked in here today so it's pretty funny. Brett was signing into the building and he wrote Brett Good Yeah I've I ran out of I ran out of puff I didn't write the B A N at the end.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

But I think these are the instructions I needed how to where to start.

SPEAKER_03 47:51

Yeah but f I think it's

Ways of Connecting with Nature

SPEAKER_03 47:52

different for everyone. Like for me I every night that I go to sleep I have my phone running with ocean waves and marine sounds like whales or very just gently seagulls water lapping on the water on the beach. Every night I put that on next to my spare pillow on the lowest setting ever and I just drift off. I love that that's my connection and even today talking a little bit more about how we feel about the reef and what it's going through in the connection that's probably the most emotional I've felt in a long time today. Because it's it's deep inside you and and some people it might be a smell that can set you off that smell of the ocean like I know that if I go near the beach oh I'm just my my whole body just feels relaxed. It's just that feeling of being connected to the ocean and connected to the reef and and that's really powerful. So some people for me having the worst ADHD in history sitting down for more than three minutes is very difficult for me. So my escape and the way I connect is sound and the smell of the ocean and being just near it. Even going past a fish and chip shop and smelling the vinegar.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

Well I think what you're saying is exact I think we can get caught up in art being oh I have to make a perfect drawing or I have to write a poem. But what you're saying is yeah it's being attuned to the world tuning into those sensations. Yeah that's what art can help us do but you don't need to draw to do that. You can be a creative person through simply taking note of those things. And creativity can manifest itself in all kinds of ways. So you're saying yep listening and smelling but then you transform that through your work into these amazing presentations and stories about the animals that you care for. And people might do it all kinds of ways people might be out in their garden and noticing all the different things growing there and turn that into a beautiful salad and that's creativity. And that's honouring the the living world and eating locally and doing things for the good for the planet too. So you know you were spot on when you said everyone's gonna have a different path to feeling and to responding to what they're feeling. So it's a bit hard to say this is the one thing for you.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:03

But I

Creativity, the Great Outdoors, and Mindfulness

SPEAKER_02 50:04

suppose with the art and the creativity that I'm talking about it's it's ultimately a couple of core things. One of them is simply paying attention. So it's okay noticing that you feel you're feeling something. Um often when we feel something discussed, we ignore it. It's taboo to talk about we don't feel like it's a valid thing. It's a bit weird.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Why would we care so much about like a non-human I I feel like Western modern society has turned pushing aside your feelings into some kind of Olympic sport. We're all extremely so extremely good at it that you have to really stop to figure out what it is that you actually do feel about anything.

SPEAKER_02 50:43

Yeah and so art can be just be one way but there's so many and ultimately it starts with paying attention. And then whatever you can do to honour that feeling I think is the next step. Yeah that's having a conversation with a friend that you might not have had the guts to tell them about this before whether it is writing it down whether it's making something that you can share whether that's a talk, podcast, poster, an email, whatever it is that's kind of the next step. But ultimately if it can be driven by joy rather than fear I think that's going to be more sustainable in the long term. So something that brings you joy. Maybe it won't bring you joy to go find an object and draw it but it will bring you joy to spend five minutes touching a tree next to the beach or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_03 51:39

Oh you get all that beautiful you get all that beautiful energy from a tree. Sit under it or sit next the energy that you can get from it that enters your body is incredible.

SPEAKER_00 51:47

Oh that connection. Did you see that video there was a David Attenborough doco where there was a small clip going around online recently of flowers giving off some kind of um vibration that attracts bees. So yeah we know now we're just veering into the esoteric but you can definitely get pick up the vibes from that energy is just so important it's everywhere. Yeah connected yeah that would be uh a subject for an entire episode the amount of science about the benefits of actually just being in nature whether it's the you know negative ions that are given off by water there's all this this scientific research into the chemicals that come out of trees which benefit our mental health there's so much scientifically grounded evidence that being in nature is beneficial for our mental health but I don't think we need any scientific studies to tell us that. Most people just know that nature makes you feel good. So getting out in the ocean in and you know if many listeners all over the world might not be able to come and swim in the on the Great Barrier Reef, but getting in your garden, getting outdoors and yeah for me like I also love other environments. I love going back to my hometown and looking at sticks and rocks and birds. Yeah that quieting of our chattering thoughts has a lot of parallels to meditation and Buddhist philosophy and so focusing on art helps with that sort of meditative state of mind where you're just focusing on something that you can touch and feel and see which is all very much aligned with meditation practices.

How to Stay Engaged Without Burning Out

SPEAKER_00 53:18

Dr Wolffern a lot of people listening might be working or volunteering in either climate action or environmental action and that can take a bit of a toll. What are some psychologically healthy ways for people to stay engaged on taking action without burning themselves out so you've got to you can't switch off from these issues completely but you've got to have some boundaries to avoid burning yourself out, don't you Dr Watfern?

SPEAKER_02 53:45

Yeah but if your burnout is so alive particularly in the conservation sector where people are just giving everything of themselves to the issues that they're passionate about. And people respond in all kinds of ways that I think it takes a huge toll and mean that people just remove themselves. So ultimately for the longer vision of the cause looking after yourself is part of the important work that you're doing. And a big part of that is rest. Rest is resistance and rest in a culture that's so fixated on productivity if you can honour your need for that that is a mode of resisting those bigger forces that many conservationists are fighting against. So whether that is through creativity and the art practices I've started to share whether that is through simply having a do a day every now and then I think having a bit of rest is really important.

SPEAKER_03 54:35

Self-care is very important.

SPEAKER_02 54:37

And thinking about self-care not in that individualistic way that's often touted in a kind of corporate speak of boosting productivity because that can verge on that too. But yeah thinking about the self as interconnected again with the systems, the places that you're trying to protect. Sound advice stoping back as well you know self-care and care for the people around you. And that can be through revealing yourself to them too and creating deeper sense of shared responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 55:05

So some advice that really resonates with me is it's a marathon not a sprint. We don't want to burn ourselves out in the first two metres of the race so we've got to pace ourselves with taking climate action and environmental action. So it's really good advice to take some time for ourselves and I really love the advice you gave earlier about doing art around things that bring you joy. If you're focusing on okay I need to do art that expresses my climate grief I struggle with that because it's kind of not that inspiring to think about making art about grief. But if I think about I'm making art about how much I love the reef and then the grief will sort of come out through that I think that's really good advice. So Dr. Watfern do you have any last thoughts to leave us on?

SPEAKER_02 55:51

Yeah I think it's just coming back to that sense of love and joy wherever we can.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

Yeah that's right.

SPEAKER_02 55:56

This work is hard and we can't do it alone either.

SPEAKER_00 55:59

Well Dr Polly Watfern artist and postdoctoral researcher with the University of New South Wales and the Black Dog Institute thanks for all your amazing work and thanks so much for joining us on Word on the Reef today.

SPEAKER_03 56:11

Thanks so much have a wonderful week.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

And thanks to you all our listeners for joining us on Word on the Reef with me, Tanya Murphy and co-host Brett this show is broadcast live from the Cannes Defense studio which is on the land of the DD people we'd like to extend our respect to elders past and present. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at instagram.com slash word on the reef podcast. That's all for this week. That's it had a great weekend see you next time. Bye