Word on the Reef
Diving into marine science adventures on the Great Barrier Reef and beyond!
Word on the Reef
S2 E23: The Neurodivergent Shark Advocate: Aliah Banchik's Journey
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Growing up with ADHD and Dyslexia, Aliah Banchik never thought she could achieve calm focus, let alone become a successful scientist, artist and Netflix star. Then she discovered sharks.
In this inspiring episode, Aliah shares her mission to reshape how we see both sharks and neurodivergence, revealing the beauty in misunderstood animals and people alike.
We’ll also chat about her journey on Netflix’s All The Sharks - no spoilers, we promise!
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Reef Update & Introducing Aliah
SPEAKER_03Hey there. Before we dive in, just a quick favorite to ask. If you're enjoying the tour, Turkey Shellfish, please take a moment to write and review it wherever you're listening. It helps more people find us in the big blue ocean of podcasts. You can also support us by hitting that follow or subscribe button. Following us on Instagram at WebOthrate Podcasts, and sharing the podcast link with a friend who might love it too. Thanks very much. Now let's get into today's episode. I'm your host, diver and marine conservationist at the MC. And joining me as always is Cand Aquarian's Marine Educator and Fish Whisperer Brett Goodman. Yes, today's show is super exciting. We're talking all things sharks again. And this time we've got a guest who's not only swimming with them and researching them, but starring alongside sharks on Netflix. But before we dive into that, just a quick reef update. This week, the Australian Institute of Marine Science, or Ames, released its latest report, and the news isn't great. The 2024 coral bleaching event was the worst on record, causing the largest annual coral cover decline in 39 years of monitoring. The southern region lost almost a third of its coral. The central region saw a 13.9% decline. And the north dropped by a quarter. And remember, this data is from last year's, 2024. So we won't know the full impact of this year's mass bleaching event until next year, because it takes quite a while for them to gather all that data. Now, I still dive on the Great Barrier Reef fairly regularly. So take it from me, the reef is still a vast living wonder. There are still stunning spots of colour and life, and it's also whale season at the moment, so I'm very jealous. My friends' Insta stories are just flooded with videos of them swimming with whales because I've got friends that are still working full time out on the liverboards and things, and they're just swimming with whales every day. So there's still so much to see out there on the reef. But after six mass bleaching events in the last nine years, this is a serious warning and an alarm bell for our reef. If we want to protect the reef for future generations, we need serious, urgent climate action. Australia remains one of the world's biggest carbon polluters per capita and continues to approve new coal and gas projects. For the sake of our reef, that has to change. So I'll pop a list of ways you can support climate action in the show notes at wordonthheef.com. Now is the time to swim towards solutions, not sink into despair. But now, back to the main course of today's show. I've got a question for all our listeners. Have you seen all the sharks yet? And no, I don't mean have you seen all the sharks in the ocean. That would be a whale of a bucket list.
SPEAKER_00That'd be awesome.
SPEAKER_03I mean, have you seen the brand new Netflix reality series, All the Sharks? Brett and I have been binge watching it over the past week and are absolutely obsessed. So it's a reality TV show where four teams of two travel to some of the world's most incredible diving destinations and compete to find and photograph the most sharks. Rare species score higher points, and the successful team wins $50,000 to donate to their conservation charity of choice.
SPEAKER_00That's so cool.
SPEAKER_03Extremely cool. And the cinematography is breathtaking. Every scene is capturing the beauty and uniqueness of the marine life in these amazing locations. It also delivers a powerful message that sharks are not the ruthless predators that they've often been portrayed as in the past. Instead, the show highlights their importance to the ocean ecosystem and how amazing it is to dive with them and the urgent need to protect them. So it's educational, eye-opening, it's raised awareness, and there's plenty of action and adventure as well.
SPEAKER_00I've pretty much come up with my dream competition.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's like the best combination of it.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's just awesome.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I was absolutely on the edge of my seat for this entire show. How did you feel while you were watching it?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I couldn't turn away. I'm always looking at sharks in the background, going, Photograph that one. Get that one. Get that one. Being the backseat. Wow, it's just amazing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, strap in because joining us on the show today is one of the stars of the Netflix show, Aaliyah Barnchik, a marine biologist, artist, and conservationist specializing in sharks and rays. Good morning, Aliyah. Welcome to Word on the Reef.
SPEAKER_01Good morning, guys. Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's such a pleasure to have you on, Alia. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Yes, we're very excited to have you on the show. Now, even though Brett and I have definitely devoured the entire series, we solemnly swear not to drop any spoilers about the competition's outcomes for our listeners today. Instead, we're excited to talk about some of the incredible destinations you dived and some of the encounters you had without giving away any of the outcomes. So fingers crossed, we'll succeed on that.
SPEAKER_01I will also take part in that square. I will not do any spoilers.
How I Accidentally Became a Shark Biologist
SPEAKER_03Okay, so first let's find out more about you. You're currently based at the Sydney Institute of Marine Science, but you also listeners might be detecting a non-Australian accent. So can you please tell us a bit about your background and how you came to be a shark and ray girly?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, so yeah, I am currently based in Sydney, Australia. I work for the Sydney Institute of Marine Science doing their communications and project management. But indeed, I am not a natural Aussie, sadly. I'm actually from New York City. So different types of sharks, yeah, different types of sharks. Different type shark tank. That's what I grew up with. Mark Cuban.
SPEAKER_02Yes, that's right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so concrete jungle definitely was actually scared of the ocean until 11th grade when I wanted to take an astronomy course, but it was full. So I had to take a marine biology course, and as a product I ended up learning about the ocean and sharks, and it just kind of melted all my fears that I was harboring around the ocean. Um and turned that fear straight into fascination, as we say, in the field. Yeah, so that's kind of the thing that got me interested in sharks, but generally I was scared of the ocean. And then moving more towards my current situation, I actually studied psychology as my undergrad degree, not marine biology. I did a minor in marine biology and also Spanish, which is pretty, pretty random YouTube.
SPEAKER_00Let's just kick them off.
SPEAKER_01Why not? You know, I was like, I don't know what I really want, but I love learning, so let's just do as much as we can.
SPEAKER_03That means you can talk to the Spanish mackerels.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Oh, it's too early too much. I haven't heard that one yet. That's good.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you'll hear it on this show, don't worry about that.
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh, yeah. So I ended up gravitating more towards the marine biology part of my studies instead of the psychology or Spanish and pursued a master's of marine biology at James Cook University, which is where I just graduated last m last last May. And yeah, now we're here. I actually did the filming for all the sharks the month after I graduated from my program. So a full year ago, I was somewhere in the world diving in some of my dream locations with the most incredible film crew and team I could have ever imagined. And now I'm watching it on TV, which is a crazy, crazy experience.
SPEAKER_03Wow. Growing up in the concrete jungles of New York, you never would have guessed all all the events that have happened since then.
SPEAKER_00It's amazing, isn't it? Where life takes you.
SPEAKER_01I thought I was gonna be either a fashion designer or a gymnast, so I'm really confused.
SPEAKER_03Just a few more of your multi-talents. So everyone out there, it's never too late to become a a shark diving, uh world traveling animal researcher.
SPEAKER_01Agreed.
Fat Sharks vs Flat Sharks
SPEAKER_03Now, the Netflix series is called All the Sharks, but you also scored points for photographing rays. Can you tell us because a lot of people are surprised to find out, what is the relationship between sharks and rays?
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh, yes, it's such a great question. Sharks and rays are actually cousins. So sharks and rays are two types of cartilaginous fishes, the third being chimeras. But sharks and rays belong to the class Alasma branchii, which is our cartilaginous friends that include the skates, rays, and sharks. And so, unlike bony fish, for example, you can probably hear it in the name, their skeletons are made out of bones. But for sharks and rays and chimeras, they're actually made out of cartilage, like what our nose and ears are made out of. So they have a very close evolutionary history. I tend to call them flat sharks.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I use the term in my shark shows that a ray is a shark that's been run over by a rubbish truck.
SPEAKER_01It's great. I like to say they've gotten pancakes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, little flowing pancakes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's exactly true. Sea pancakes are another great term for them, but yeah, the scientific name for that kind of body morphology is you would just say they're dorso-ventrally flattened, which is essentially saying that they have been pancaked by a lot of said.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yeah, repeat that at home for all the listeners to make sure they learn their terms.
SPEAKER_00Yes, uh, be a quiz next week, listeners. All right.
SPEAKER_01This is this is the word of the day.
SPEAKER_00Dorso-ventrally flattened. Did I?
SPEAKER_01I love it.
SPEAKER_00Actually, speaking of shirts, while I remember, you were wearing a shirt in the show that had a lasma branch. Well, what was it? I looked at it and went, I've got to get one of those.
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh. Thank you for noticing. It was actually one of our Finstitute shirts.
SPEAKER_00That's the one. I was looking at a guy not going to get me one of them.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. They're for sale. I can send you the link.
SPEAKER_03Brett's amassing quite a collection of t-shirts from all the people we've talked. So that's good.
SPEAKER_01That's good. I definitely take pride in very nerdy punny merch. So this is just one for you. I don't know if you've come across this one yet, but I just made an entire sweatshirt that has a bunch of rays all over it. And it says I'm a bar B girl. You get it? It's like dingers have barbs.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, Brett, you'll look great in that one.
SPEAKER_01It's pink, it'll match beautifully.
The Most Misunderstood Animals on Earth
SPEAKER_03Okay, so Elasmo Branx, a sharks and rays, rays are pancake sharks. And I think that helps to remove some of the stereotype that all sharks are jawsome predators. Um because many of the sharks and rays just have sort of a um almost like a toothless mouth that they use to suck up things out of the sand. So they're quite cute and harmless. Little vacuum cleans.
SPEAKER_01And if you also think about it, like this is a personal mission of mine to like kind of redefine sharks as being apex predators as like a blanket statement. Because the reality is that the majority of them are not apex predators. If you look and watch all the sharks and you see, for example, the Japan episode, if you look at a banded hound shark, you look at that and you are not thinking, exactly, you're not thinking that's an apex predator right there. You're thinking, Oh my goodness, nicotine no longer.
SPEAKER_00You just see a little epaulette shark walking towards you and going, mate, you're not scary.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Like, are you fearing like is that the top of the food chain? Is that the apex predator of the great berry reef? So No, those are mesopredators. And actually a lot of sharks and rays are mesopreds. So I think, yeah, defining them steering away from that classic narrative, which I think the show does so beautifully of defining sharks as these mindless and man-eating machines, these apex predators. It's like, well, actually, most of them are mesopredors and they're actually not all crazy and gruesome and you know.
SPEAKER_03Can you define that term mesopred?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, mesopredors just you know, not up at the top of the food chain, more sitting in the middle of the food chain. They are eaten and they also eat other organisms like other animals. So they're kind of hanging out in the middle there.
SPEAKER_03I like to describe them as you know, people love puppies, right? But dogs range from huge, terrifying guard dogs through to little Jack Russels. Jack Russell's on sausage dogs and uh chihuahuas.
SPEAKER_01So Exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03It's there's a lot of Chihuahua versions of sharks as well.
SPEAKER_01Right, exactly. You want to get a chihuahua and be like, that's a guard dog. That's right. Like, no way.
SPEAKER_00And it's also the stigma around the term apex predator for the general public too. Do you know what I mean? As soon as I hear apex predator, they've just got every horror movie they've ever watched running through their heads. And that's what I do at the beginning of my shark shows. I was explain that an apex predator is the laziest creature because it wants to eat the sick and injured. Do you just want to see float around the ocean looking amazing all day?
SPEAKER_01It's it's so true. And if if we do want to be, you know, very stringent with our use of the term apex predator, that would be us, my friend. That's it.
SPEAKER_00We are definitely apex, yes.
SPEAKER_01Are certainly like the shark populations are not doing so well globally, which I'm sure we'll get into later, but it's not their fault, it's our fault. Like we are the ones that are making that that impact on the ecosystem. So if anybody's an apex predator top of the food chain, it's us.
Hammerhead Habits
SPEAKER_03So Aliyah, can you sum up for us which aspects of shark and ray science you're particularly interested in?
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh, I don't think I can.
SPEAKER_03Perfect answer. Forget about all the sharks.
SPEAKER_00It's all the aspects. Only from the nose to the tail. That's all I'm interested in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. If it's made out of cartilage, I'm interested. No, it's it's a good question. So I did my master's thesis on the feeding ecology of this really awesome ray species called a giant shovel nose ray.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh, they're just the coolest. They are definitely some of my favorite rays. That said, that's the main experience I have right now, is in the area of feeding ecology, and I absolutely loved it. But I'm also really, really interested in understanding sensory systems of sharks and rays, even like boldness, personality traits of them, and also morphology, like learning the evolution of different morphologies. Like, for one, I think one of the craziest facts for me personally is that hammerheads are the most recently evolutionarily derived form of a shark.
SPEAKER_03So they're like the they've reached pink shark at that stage.
SPEAKER_01At the moment, at least, and it's so interesting to me because to me they look like some of the more prehistoric sharks. They look like a dinosaur, but the reality is that is the body form that has been most evolutionarily advantageous in the past whatever million hundreds of thousands of years. And I just I I think that's so, so cool, and I just want to learn more about that. So I don't know.
SPEAKER_03That is really cool. Yeah, I was wondering about that hammerhead shape and to know that that's like a in deep time terms, a recent development. That's really interesting.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, totally. They use their hammer to pin them down and then take a little chunk out. But I've definitely seen jars even that have stingray barbs coming out of their teeth of cream.
SPEAKER_03So so speaking of feeding habits, the hammerheads are swimming along with their face in the sand, trying to eat rays.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're just pinning them down. It's crazy to me that that is the most efficient way to get a stingray.
SPEAKER_00You've got to think it's gotta be better than that, right?
SPEAKER_01I know. It's crazy. It's such precision.
SPEAKER_00But their their ampulla Lorenzini on their head must be just tenfold to a normal shark dice.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, they definitely have a really nice surface area for that electrode reception.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So that must play a huge role in it. But I even like, you know, you see videos, for example, Dr. Nico Lubitz from James Cook University is one of our colleagues. He has some really incredible videos of hammerheads fully pursuing and chasing stingrays, like ones that weren't even hidden under the sand. They're just straight up sprinting after them and still managing to nail them down.
SPEAKER_03They just love pancakes. Pancake sharks. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Pancakes for breakfast. That's so good. I love that.
SPEAKER_03Wow. So that if that is where evolution is tending towards with the eyes just growing further and further outwards into a hammer shape, I wonder if that's happening to us as well, Brett. If we're just gonna be able to do that.
SPEAKER_00I'm just horrified right now. Really far apart. I do not want to see what's behind me all the time. That would freak me out.
SPEAKER_03So
The FIN-stitute: Get involved in citizen shark science!
SPEAKER_03Aliyah, I understand while you're at JCU, you mentioned it already. You co-founded the Finstitute. I love the name, by the way. I love that too.
SPEAKER_01Oh, thank you.
SPEAKER_03Can you tell us a bit about that organization?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I'd love to. Yeah. So alongside my co-founder, Luca Hoffeker, we created this student-led consortium that it's this big network of passionate students that are eager to get hands-on experiences in the realm of Shark and Ray research and science and conservation in general. And pairing that with amplifying and expediting the efforts of Indonesian or international at this point as well led organizations that are doing stuff already. They're like on the ground in these local communities, local run, and they're doing amazing things, but they might need extra hands with, I don't know, photo identification analysis because they have this huge database, for example, which is this is actually an example that we just partnered with. Um we just partnered with this organization called Spot a Shark, which is this huge photo identification base of Grainer Sharks, and it's amazing. Like they have thousands and thousands and thousands of Grainer Shark pictures.
SPEAKER_03That's just like the real life version of the Netflix series. Yeah, that's right. Spotting sharks as many sharks as possible and taking photos of them for real research.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And they the issue though is that they don't have the resources and the manpower to go through all of them on a very detailed, fine-level scale and you know, pull out the meaningful things that they're looking for, which are things like fishing related injuries or you know, pregnancies and just general like age ranges of these sharks in certain areas.
SPEAKER_03It's tough enough for me just going through all my photos and videos after one week holiday or something.
SPEAKER_01Oh, a hundred percent. It's overwhelming. And so what we do as the Finstitute is we are connecting these students that are craving these opportunities to participate meaningfully in conservation with these organizations that could use the extra resources um and help and giving students capacity building opportunities to be able to even get their foot in the door for marine science and shark science conservation stuff at the same time that we get to, you know, make meaningful changes and assist and collaborate with international organizations or local ones. And it's actually really exciting too, because just recently we actually became uh international nonprofit. So we are actually able to accept members from all over the world. You don't have to be a student. Anyone who's interested in shark science and wants to learn about it, you don't have to have a background in it. We are actually starting to run international expeditions where we will give you hands-on experience and teachings in the realm of shark and race science. So get ready.
SPEAKER_03I'm on one of those expeditions as soon as I can. I'm going to find all the sharks.
SPEAKER_01That's the mission. That's the mission.
SPEAKER_03So,
Gills Gone Wild: Shark Finding Queens
SPEAKER_03speaking of that, let's talk about the Netflix series All the Sharks Now. Earlier, as a diver myself, I was way too emotionally invested in this show. I was like, you know, those crazy football supporters. I've never understood them, but now I do. I was yelling at the screen. I was like, no, look behind you. There's a Caribbean reef shark or whatever. I learned all the shark species names because there were many sharks on the show that I didn't actually know before, and I had memorized the scorecards. So as soon as you saw something, I was like, yes, that's 20 points. And yes, I felt like I was in the water with you. I was deep in it. So thank you for that amazing entertainment. And and your team, Gills Gone Wild, quickly became a a favorite. How did you and your dive buddy MJ meet?
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh. Well, first of all, I absolutely loved the sports analogy. That's fantastic. Thank you for the support from the Gills Gone Wild team. Um, yeah, MJ and I actually are friends. We met in Miami Beach, which is where I was living before I moved to Australia, and we met during a bikini beach cleanup. Um MJ actually runs her own nonprofit as well called Clean This Beach Up. And I had just started this graphic design and underwater photography company called Naked for Nature, and I was running my first art show. And so as a promotion for that art show, I actually reached out to MJ and her organization to see if they wanted to do this kind of promotional beach cleanup. But since my organization's called Naked for Nature, we made it a bikini beach cleanup.
SPEAKER_03Did the men have to wear bikinis as well?
SPEAKER_01Yes, it was mandatory. So nobody came.
SPEAKER_00Put them in man canies, that'll sort them out.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. I know. Just use some buddy smugglers, you know, that counts.
SPEAKER_00You're now officially an Aussie by saying that, by the way.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much. Oh my gosh. I can feel the passport migrating to you right now.
SPEAKER_03Wow, if you did a bikini beach clean up in far north Queensland, you'd end up getting stung by a jellyfish or um Yeah, a little bit hazardous up here.
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh, don't even get I'm just I'm a redhead, so like the sun exposure, I could never.
SPEAKER_03I could never our guest today is Aaliyah Bantick, marine biologist and shark and ray specialist, featured on the Netflix series All the Sharks. And we've just been talking about the series. Brett and I have binge watched the entire show and we're obsessed with
Diving with a Flying School Bus
SPEAKER_03it. And Aaliyah, I'm upset. You've cost me a fortune, by the way. I now have a bunch of new dive destinations on my bucket list. My bank account is not going to be happy with that. Um because you got to travel around the world diving some of the most incredible diving destinations, and seeing them in all their glory has been really motivating to the diver and me. But what was your favorite dive that you did for this show?
SPEAKER_01Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_03Hard to pick, I'm sure. Yeah. Tell you can tell us a couple, like what were some of the highlights?
SPEAKER_01Okay. Starting at the Maldives, I will say that was definitely one of the highlights for me because I saw an oceanic mantra, right? I don't think that's giving anything away. It's like crazy. But that was one of the most beautiful, magical things ever. Those things are so big. It's insane. They're almost the size of a school bus.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, they can get their wingtip to wingtip up to like seven meters or something. Yep. Yep. That's correct. Was it fully grown, the one you saw?
SPEAKER_01Um, I it was a little bit smaller. I don't think it was the full seven meters, but still what a beautiful treat. They're like angels underwater.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was standing in the middle of the land room floor cheering you on when I saw that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they they are so special. And I actually I used to work in Kona, Hawaii as an eco-tour guide doing like the night dives with the reef mantays, which are a smaller species, but even seeing the small ones in person is just like a spiritual experience in and of itself. So yeah, but seeing a an oceanic was just seriously so insane.
SPEAKER_03Well, you say small about the reef mantra, but they can still be two meters or so across.
SPEAKER_01Oh, they can get bigger.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, up to Osprey. I've seen one five meters across.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, they actually are still pretty, pretty big cartilaginous fish, but compared to a school bus. But yeah, so that was a highlight,
How Tiger Sharks Cure Anxiety
SPEAKER_01but also for me, I had never seen a tiger shark in my life. And so getting to be surrounded by tiger sharks was literally one of the most insane and deeply calming experiences I've ever had in my life.
SPEAKER_00It's yeah, it's it's interesting, isn't it? People wouldn't expect that.
SPEAKER_03Have have you dived with a tiger shark, Brett?
SPEAKER_00I have come across one by accident that came round behind me up at the codhole. Yeah, he sort of snuck up on me a bit and I just took a breath and watched him go past. It was it's humbling. That's what it is. Oh humbling. You put in your place very quickly. You know, you just realize this is an aeroson, it's there, so I'm just gonna sit here, you go past, big fella. Wherever you're going, you just keep going that way.
SPEAKER_03All of a sudden you're like trying to make myself as small as possible. And I'm sorry, I'm sorry for existing. Sorry.
SPEAKER_00I'm hiding next to a cleaner ass, so that's not really helping any point. Don't move, buddy, just stay there.
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh. No, I I think it's such a special experience to be able to coexist in that way in their environment. It's just it was deeply peaceful. I know that sounds kind of weird and crazy, but at least at least for this experience where I was fully expecting to see a ton of tiger sharks. Like for yours, maybe it was like at first, whoa, okay, hello. You know, now now I'm calm, but I wasn't after I just saw you out of nowhere. For me, I was expecting to be surrounded by a bunch of them and I just remember holding on to this piece of rock because there was a really strong current and watching one just come very slowly and calmly, just approach me almost till it was less than a meter away from my face, and then turn just so that its eye could see me. And it I I cried underwater. It was one of the most beautiful, most connected experiences I've ever felt to the underwater world.
SPEAKER_00And that's something that you have to experience yourself, isn't it? Like when we see a massive whale underwater, or when I used to do the shark feeds up with Osprey and film them, you just feel so connected with them. They're just big giants.
SPEAKER_01And everything just stops. Like you realize like nothing else matters in that moment except what is right in front of you, and I think that's just so powerful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's what you could call like a peak life experience where you're 100%. It's like you've uh reached 20 years of Buddhist meditation. No nirvana.
SPEAKER_00It's almost like being accepted by them as well. It does feel like that. When we get into their world, it's a privilege every time we get in there. And to have something so big just look straight at you, it's almost like a little bit of a head nod, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You're all good. I see you. Yeah, you're welcome to my home, you just stay there, right? This is our planet.
SPEAKER_01That's right. I totally agree with that. I love what you said, that it it's a privilege every time. I I totally agree with that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, some moments like that in your life really fades out all the noise and makes you hyper focused in a way that, like I was saying, some people have to meditate for 20 years to get that level of focusing on the present moment. Oh, exactly. Nature can do it so.
SPEAKER_00You've got to be there. You've got to feel it.
SPEAKER_01You got yeah, you know, you don't you don't have to start with tiger sharks necessarily, but maybe an epilet. I yeah, you know, starting tiger therapy. I um I have pretty rampant ADHD, if you guys couldn't tell from this conversation. But I find it really, really hard for my brain to ever focus on one thing or just be silent. And I do remember vividly the first time that I went shark diving in Jupiter, Florida, I was actually pretty nervous because it's not you don't do cage diving there. Um and I was like, oh, I don't know what this is gonna feel like. And my heart rate was really high right before, but as soon as I got in the water, I it was a mix between being suspended in this perfect blue water, which is a natural cure to anxiety because of the pressure that you have around your body when you're in water, and then being surrounded by literally prehistoric creatures that have survived mass extinction throughout evolutionary histories and knowing that they they are the ones that I was driving with here were in fact apex predators.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01And the kind of heightened awareness that you have just from like a human evolutionary like survival need is just it gives you the most pinpoint focus that you literally have zero other thoughts going through your mind. I have my heart rate has never been so low in my life than when I was on a shark dive, and it's my deepest form of meditation.
SPEAKER_00I'm definitely in the same boat as you. I have I've had I'm just crazy. I could make a cup of tea and then vacuum the car in three seconds. I have the worst ADHD on the planet. Yeah, I can get stuff done, just not in order, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, agreed.
SPEAKER_00But I I know what you're saying because I've experienced it that first time that I got underwater. I felt calm that I'd never felt before. I was so hyper focused and I thought this is this is where I need to be. This is where I'm connected the most, and I just I don't know, I just loved it ever since. So powerful. Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_03You did a psychology undergrad as well earlier, and now we know what the prescription is. Everyone just needs to go diving. That's it. That's it. I mean the natural environment is where humans spent hundreds of thousands of years, and that's where these special superpowers and neurodivergences were so helpful.
SPEAKER_01So exactly. Exactly. It's so true.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, wow. The um drifted off on that week. I think one of your Instagram posts was, I don't know if the solutions to all my problems are at the bottom of the ocean, but I'd better just go and check just in case.
SPEAKER_00I'll be back in about, I don't know, three weeks.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Oh my gosh, there was actually such a funny meme going around the diving community during COVID where it was like scientists say the only safe place to be is underwater right now, and it was a picture of a tech diver with like 50 tanks.
SPEAKER_00Perfect. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Wow. So hopefully that helps some people to understand why we get addicted to diving with sharks.
SPEAKER_00It's like once you get that feeling of acceptance, it changes everything.
Shovels, Guitars, Wedges: All the Shark Shapes... And Aliah's Fave Dive Location
SPEAKER_03So maybe I won't name the locations because I don't want to give away to people which locations you got to go to specifically, maybe, but you did do one dive on the Great Barrier Reef, which was home ground advantage for you, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01One would have thought. One would have thought. Yeah. I would just like to say I am obsessed with Herod Island. That is definitely I was gonna say that one next. That was one of my favorite places, that is one of my favorite places in the world that I've ever dived. Um, it is just such a magical place, especially if you are a ray enthusiast, because holy cow, there is just everything. And there was there was even some rays that they didn't even show that we got to see um on the show. For example, this wasn't on the show, so it's not a spoiler, but I saw actually a a freaking wedge fish at night, and it was so cool. It was we were doing like a little nighttime snorkel, and this dude just seeked me out. Like he came, checked me out straight up, and then turned, and I, like a crazy lunatic like I am, I screamed into my snorkel out of pure excitement and it got kind of spooked and then went off. But like I am obsessed. It's also an incredible nursery ground, seemingly, for the giant shovel nose rays that I was studying up in Townsville. So I've seen a ton of those in a previous trip that I had taken to Heron Island and wow, just wow. I'm it's such a special place. I have no words to really describe it truly.
SPEAKER_03What was the first thing that you said? A wedge fish.
SPEAKER_01A wedge fish, yes. So there's these guys always get confused. You get guitar fishes and wedge fishes. They always get lumped into random groupings together, but they typically that collection of fish which have this really funky body morphology that kind of looks like a shark and a ray. It kind of looks like a ray that decided it wanted to be a shark halfway through evolving. So there's like a disc at the front and then a shark tail on the back. And people tend to call them rhino rays as a group, but there's wedge fishes, which are very much different than guitar fishes, though they share some things. Both of them are amazing and beautiful. But I've never seen a wedge fish before, and I was studying guitar fish, so you know it was nice.
SPEAKER_03It was a nice little So they're so they're wedge shaped. Uh I guess it's like a it's like a pizza slice with a tail.
SPEAKER_00There you go.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's actually Percy's bottom.
SPEAKER_00We've got a couple of shovel nose rays in our oceanary work, we call them Cass and Kim because they've both got an attitude. You mean you look underneath them, they they look like they want to speak to a manager, they always look really grumpy. Like when they look back at you, it's so funny. Oh my god. They just sit on the tunnel and judge people all day as they walk past.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's so judgy, though.
SPEAKER_03When you go to the Kansas Brian, you will get judged. Yeah, you will definitely get they're so sweet.
SPEAKER_01They're so sweet. Yeah, they're I definitely have a soft spot in my heart for Heron Island. Also just the ecosystem there, it's like this intertidal, subtidal fluctuation that they have on the reef there. So the reef can be essentially completely exposed during certain hours of the day, which is insane, and then submerged under like two meters of water at night or a different time in the day. And that's when these epaulette sharks really thrive because, like you said, they're walking sharks. They have a really high tolerance for low oxygen environments so that they can exist in these really dynamic ecosystems where they can yeah, kind of walk across the reef when there's no more water on it. And then when the water comes back, they're thriving and swimming around or hiding under a coral bomb. It's just so cool.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Our guest today is Aliyah Banchik, marine biologist and shark and dray specialist, featured on the Netflix series All the Sharks, which we've been absolutely raving about because we love the show so much. And we've only got about 10 minutes left of the show, and there's so so many more sharks that we wanted to talk about. But let's let's pick.
The Swirling Shark-Ray-Doh
SPEAKER_03Like, I just want everyone to know that somewhere in this series they get to see a shark NATO.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03Um how was it for you, Aliyah, being in the middle of a uh swirling maelstrom of sharks?
SPEAKER_01I would definitely say that was a career highlight. Yeah. Definitely, definitely. That was so cool. And it's also what is not mentioned when you hear the term shark NATO is that there was actually a ton of stingrays in there. So I would say shark and ray NATO.
SPEAKER_00Shark Rado. Shark Rado, dude.
SPEAKER_01Shark Redo, that's so good. Yeah, it was amazing. It was seriously so amazing. Bandit Hound sharks, I think, are one of the derpier types of sharks. They kind of give me worm vibes. I love them. And they're just kind of all over, all up in your business, and it's just it's great. Yeah, no personal space. And and the red stinger is pretty epic too, I gotta say.
SPEAKER_03Awesome. Well, if you want to see what those are, everyone, you're just gonna have to watch the show. You're just gonna have to.
SPEAKER_01They'll have to see
Stripey Pyjamas and Spotty Leopards
SPEAKER_01you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and another thing which everyone just has to see is these adorable sharks in one of the locations. I had never seen a picture of these before. Pajama sharks, as the name suggests. They're so stripey and cute. And then especially the leopard catfish.
SPEAKER_00Had me going. I want one.
SPEAKER_01I mean me too. I was like, can I pet that dog?
SPEAKER_03And it's actually there's a lot of things that humans aren't very creative with their naming. Everything that has spots ends up getting called leopard something. So we've got leopard sea cucumbers because they have spots. And then we just have plain leopard sharks because they have spots. But the leopard catfish is the most identical to an actual leopard. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01For me, it looks like almost like you told a three-year-old to draw a pattern on it. Like it looks like they're like squiggled on, but they're perfect, but they look like they've been penciled on.
SPEAKER_00So cute. So adorable.
SPEAKER_01So adorable. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03Alright, well, everyone out there, if you want to see these ridiculous little sharks, make sure you watch the show.
To Chum or Not to Chum?
SPEAKER_03Um, but okay, so here's a spicy question. On several dives on the show, you were encouraged to chum the water to attract more sharks, which is good for TV. But we're not allowed to do that in the Great Barrier Reef, in the green zones. What are your thoughts on that practice?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, if I've learned anything from my time in science and in shark conservation, nothing is black and white. So I think there's definitely situations where it doesn't make sense and you shouldn't do it, and then there's situations where it does make sense and there's it's advantageous. It's kind of like how I view aquariums as well. I think that there's obviously pros and cons to aquariums, but I think the net benefit to most aquariums is that it literally sparks interest in a number of people who might not ever experience the ocean in its truest form, and then creates more advocates that then go on to protect it. So as long as there's a net positive and there's not like a long-term consequence, I think it's all right. Especially in the show, like, for example, the reason I felt comfortable doing it there is because we were always following local guidelines and practices. Like the local dive guides would always come out with us for every single dive, and they would be the ones to instruct us on how to use it, how they typically do it for their dives and whatnot. So we would never go out of our way to do it in places where you're not supposed to or where they don't already have that infrastructure set up, which I think is really important. I wouldn't ever advocate for just going out and throwing a bunch of chum in the water and then jumping in. You want to make sure you're going with professionals who have a lot of experience doing those things. But at the end of the day, I think it also comes to show how little interest sharks truly have in us because we had to use chum to get them to come to us, and oftentimes they still didn't.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01So I hope that does break some stereotypes around sharks, people thinking as soon as I get in the water, they're gonna come after me. It's like even if you put some fish scraps in the water, they won't even come to you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there was uh yeah, there's one particular episode where that is quite obvious.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so, you know, you can tell that we all love diving with sharks, but that moment when you guys had the choice to use Charm and Dead Fish in the Water, known for its great white sharks. I was like, okay. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01How was that?
SPEAKER_03How was that? How did that feel for you?
SPEAKER_01Honestly, that felt fine because at the end of the day, like the research has shown that the great white sharks have literally not made an appearance there in five years because of certain other apex predators of the ocean that come and scare them away. So I was feeling pretty good about that. And then I was also feeling pretty good about the amount of chum that we were bringing down. We had like a tiny little essentially sandwich bag of sardines that we smashed up, which is not the primary food source of these kind of apex predators that we're we're talking about. So I really had zero qualms doing that. Like it was such a small amount of fish, and again, not the fish that would interest them. And also under the guidance of the local dive guides that literally work and do these tours on the daily, like that's how they get the target species to come out, which were the derpy, derpy, derpy little wormy shark. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's you know, we understand shark behavior. You would have had more chance of a great white turning up if you did star jumps underwater or carry a small battery in your pocket. Do you know what I mean? If you'd taken a little double A battery in your pocket, you probably would have found one pretty quick.
SPEAKER_01Right, exactly. Like a lot of factors went into that decision, and yeah, under the guidance of the locals, that made me feel good, and also just knowing.
SPEAKER_03But did any of the teams see a great white shark? Well, you'll just have to watch the show.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're gonna keep people hanging.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so we're
Megalodon: The Largest Shark that Ever Lived
SPEAKER_03gonna go.
SPEAKER_00I just got one quick question though. I've got to ask this, right? Because I noticed it. Great British Beethoven, the guy in the team, was that a megalodon tooth around his neck?
SPEAKER_01Oh, Dan, I think it must have been. I don't know. So he's actually got a lot of a really cool background doing some TED talks about great white shark behavior, because he's done a lot of it in South Africa. So it probably was either a great white or a megtooth. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was fixated on it. Sure, that's a megtooth. Go to get yourself one, right? I've got a few at work.
SPEAKER_01Um you have to find it yourself though.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, for any listeners that aren't aware, that those are fossilized tooth from the world's largest shark that ever lived. Now extinct. Now extinct, but the fossils are lying around somewhere out there. Okay,
Aliah's journey with ADHD and Dyslexia
SPEAKER_03so how do we use three more minutes, guys? We could literally talk. We're gonna have to get you back on the show again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm gonna go.
SPEAKER_00We got two years of repeat guests lined up.
SPEAKER_03Let me scan the remaining questions and pick out two more of the most important ones. So rapid fire. So I want everyone to know that, you know, as if starring in a Netflix series and studying marine life and running conservation initiative wasn't enough. I want to plug the fact that you've also written a book and given a TED talk about your experience with dyslexia. You're also a digital artist with your own digital art company. I think you've managed to fit three lifetimes into one. Yeah. So do you want to take one final speech to wrap up all we all starts with all your work and yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And you know, I actually think there is one thread that sums up all of those things, and it is neurodivergence. At the end of the day, I attribute any of my successes to my different way of thinking, which is a combination of ADHD and dyslexia. And I became very much aware of that in the school system when I was doing really badly in school for a long, long time, and had no idea how I could fix it no matter how hard I tried until I redid the system for myself. Like I figured out how my brain worked, and then I did everything in line with how my brain worked instead of how I was taught to do it. And then that was the key to my success, which then led me to want to share that with other people because I did grow up for so long feeling inadequate and not smart. I thought I was gonna be a fashion designer or an athlete because I didn't think I had another option. You know, like I thought that wasn't just for me.
SPEAKER_00So that's such a good message.
SPEAKER_01It's really important, and I think that it's becoming increasingly sought after, which is incredible, like this kind of different way of thinking in the realm of STEM. And I do feel that one of the things I'm really passionate about advocating for, since I have this incredible platform from all the sharks, and I still have I now have this kind of, you know, mentality of being the shark and ray specialist, I want to show people that a different way of thinking is not an inhibitor to your success. It might very well be the key to your success. And I want to show people that because the classic education system might have failed you and you've done poorly in school grades-wise, keep pushing and find the things that work for you because at the end of the day, your different way of thinking might just get you on a Netflix show.
SPEAKER_03And and achieving a bunch of other things. You've only got 30 seconds left. But everyone go and look up Alia Banchik, check out her website, follow her on Instagram, check out her digital art support, the Finstitute, and all the work to protect the sharks and rays.
unknownYes!
SPEAKER_03And uh best fishes and see you next time. Oh, thank you so much. Thanks, buddy. Have a great week.
